The podcast by education leaders for education leaders

Even More Learning Made Visible

Guest(s): John Hattie
Date: 05/15/2023
Run time: 42:43
Season 5, Episode 10

The one and only John Hattie joins LCL to share the sequel of his seminal book, Visible Learning. It is not merely an update on previous content, but a concerted effort to focus on what we don’t already know about, along with data that has changed. He also discusses the importance of paying attention to what teachers believe about learning, the need to highlight the many schools doing the work well and how to choose where to focus our limited time as educators. He reminds us that teachers and leaders have some of the highest coping strategies of any profession and that there is much to celebrate in all we do.

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Episode Audio

Series 5 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.68] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host, Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance, but by design.

[00:00:19.69] TANYA: Hey, Peter.

[00:00:21.34] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya, how are you?

[00:00:22.99] TANYA: I'm really good.

[00:00:25.22] PETER DEWITT: Well, today's-- I'm pretty excited about today's recording just because-- well, a few reasons. One, it gave me the opportunity to actually spend a lot of time off air talking with them. But it's also just such an honor when I get the opportunity to have a conversation with John Hattie, who is our guest today. Many people are going to know that John is professor Emeritus from the University in Melbourne, in Australia.

[00:00:50.81] He's won numerous awards, both state, country, worldwide. He's the most cited educational researcher in the world. And he just released Visible Learning, the sequel, which is really exciting. Which is something, actually, we talked about in the podcast as well. But John more than that, I feel very fortunate because he's also a friend. And he's been a mentor of mine over the years. I've always felt honored that I know him. And the person, not just the researcher, but the person John Hattie is a pretty spectacular guy.

[00:01:32.01] So this conversation was really good. I should give people a heads up, though, that I was recording from my hotel room in California because I was there for work. And John was recording from Melbourne at home, where he was also a little bit sick. Not COVID, but he was feeling a little bit sick. So he was huffing a little bit, which he worried about. But I don't think people will care because the substance of the conversation is more important than any of that.

[00:02:02.07] TANYA: Oh yeah, his coughing, if we don't edit it out, it is not disruptive to the conversation at all. And what a joy it must be to have access to a mind like Hattie. Because it comes with so much knowledge. I mean, one of the things about listening to him is that any question you posed to him across the educational landscape because he's got so much data at his fingertips and he's just so immersed in this world, he can bring a perspective to it so quickly, that's just so helpful for you to or me as a listener just to get some context. And really, maybe think about what seemed like a simple discrete thing in this different way.

[00:02:50.17] So I know listeners, most of them know who Hattie is. He's almost a household name, especially for educators. And it won't disappoint. I like that this book is not a second edition. He really goes into why it's a sequel or an extension of the work that he's done with the first book. And I think he has some really great insights to share about what's coming up in this new text.

[00:03:21.30] PETER DEWITT: It's always on my mind when I think about his research. Not just from the effect size piece because I think that's what people gravitate to, but also just from the-- well, this is how it's looked so far. And this is how impactful it's been. But if we can do things a little bit differently where this is concerned, then maybe the impact will be greater. Or just the idea of being more intentional about understanding that we need to be able to focus on learning.

[00:03:48.60] And then you go into so many situations, where people are focusing on the adults or on tasks that they need to be able to do. And when you bring it back to student learning, which is what John does, that's really important. And I agree with you when it comes to the sequel. I remember it was years ago, I was running a workshop in Wisconsin. And one of the first things I asked is, what do you know about John Hattie's research?

[00:04:10.48] And there were a few people that actually said, well, his research is very dated. It's from the 70s and 1980s. And the book came out in 2009. It's seven years later or something like that. And I said, OK, thanks, that's really interesting. Because John actually updates his research more than anybody that I know. And he talks about that within this recording, which is important.

[00:04:37.29] Because I think people will look at the sequel and say, Oh good, he's updated some research since 2019. But they need to know he's always done that. And in fact, I would say, since that time, not only has he updated his research based on other meta-analysis that came in, but he's also updated his research based on feedback that he's received from people. That the sequel is more than just a continuation of a research, it's also those situations that he was in, where people were giving him feedback that he was deeply listening to. And that he would consider that as he moved forward.

[00:05:17.13] TANYA: Yeah, I mean this is what we should expect from scholars. Things don't stay the same. Things are supposed to evolve and change. And so if there's any idea that scholars, once they figure something out, they know it. And they're done. That's actually the problematic way of thinking and doing the work.

[00:05:33.50] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. So--

[00:05:35.20] TANYA: Without further ado.

[00:05:37.03] PETER DEWITT: Happy listening because I could talk about John for hours at a time. So happy listening. I hope they find the recording, the conversation to be as amazing as I always do.

[00:05:50.14] TANYA: Oh, they will. So without further ado, listeners, we bring you John Hattie and Peter. And we will see you on the other side.

[00:05:58.34] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:06:01.57] PETER DEWITT: John Hattie, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:06:05.44] JOHN HATTIE: It's good to be back, Peter.

[00:06:07.36] PETER DEWITT: It's good to see you and good to talk to you. Thank you for coming on. I want to say, congratulations because the Visible Learning sequel has come out. So talk to us a little bit about, first, why did you decide to write a sequel after all these years?

[00:06:25.77] JOHN HATTIE: Peter, it's got nothing to do with Star Wars. It's to do with-- the pressure I had on me was to write a second edition. And in the second edition, it's updating the 2008 book. And things have changed dramatically since 2008 for me. For example, there were 800 meta-analysis in 2008. There's now 2,100 as of 2022. I wanted to spend a lot more time on the story, rather than on the data.

[00:06:56.55] As you know, Peter, because you've been intrinsically involved in this, we've done a lot of work since 2008 in schools. 10,000 to 15,000 schools, 200,000 to 300,000 teachers. We've learned a lot from that. And so you can see that there's a whole lot of things I've learned since [INAUDIBLE]. And I don't want to call it a second edition because the expectation is it'll be the old book updated. But I do want to base it on the old book. Hence, the notion of a sequel.

[00:07:18.90] But Peter, you can be assured there will be no prequel. It's OK. And so that was the main reason is to spend a lot more time on the story. There's no references to the meta-analysis in the new book. There's not as much data in the new book. The barometer has changed, primarily, because with 350 influencers, that's another 108 pages. There's another 200 pages of references.

[00:07:47.79] If I put all the data in, it would be another 400 pages. It's thick enough as it is. So all those details, critical as they are, we've put on the web as a free website called MetaX. So you can follow up all that detail. So the book is much more about the story. And it's about where I am in my thinking about that story, that underlies those influences, the most successful.

[00:08:08.84] The other thing, Peter, is about five years ago, we ditched the league table, the list of influences. It was too often misinterpreted. It work for a while, got attention. But then it was misinterpreted. So we've ditched that. And trying to spend a lot more time on that explanatory story.

[00:08:27.90] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. To me, it's always been interesting because I mean, I've worked with you over the years. And I remember I was presenting somewhere. And they said, well, he uses a lot of older data and stuff. And I'm like, but John's research is probably the most current research you could ever have because it's always being updated. And they didn't know that.

[00:08:47.35] So even though I see the sequel and we talk about the increase in the number of meta-analysis and stuff, I've always known you to just be updating your research all the time. I feel like you just finally had time to breathe and actually do a sequel because you've been doing this work all along. It's not like 12 years later, 15 years later, you decided, hey, I'm now going to write a sequel.

[00:09:12.42] I think it's that research has always been there because you've always been keeping it so current. You just finally had the time to put it down on paper. Would that make-- does that make sense?

[00:09:23.13] JOHN HATTIE: It did. And actually, COVID helped. I retired from my university job before COVID came along. And for the first time for eons of my life, I had concentrated time that I could sit down and write. So that helped dramatically get through it. And yes, I have kept up to date on the meta-analysis. I still do every time they come out. I've got systems built in my computer systems to alert me to new meta-analysis. I add them to the database. MetaX, we update it once or twice a year.

[00:09:51.82] We're still doing that even though the sequel came out. I stopped July 2022. I said, that's it. I'm going to write the book up till that date. Obviously, in the last year, there's been another 100 odd meta-analysis came out. So research didn't stop in 2008. I noticed one of the Twitter comments about the new book recently is, oh, has he changed his mind? And I want to go back to that person and say, do you still teach as you did 15 years ago? Yeah.

[00:10:22.97] And when I hear you say you have systems in place in this computer, all of a sudden, I just had this image of in your basement, you and Janet have this huge master computer that we should be looking at. One of the things that you said early on when we first started this conversation is the idea of you've learned a lot. And I think that because you talk about learning. so much and facilitate those conversations among others, I think it would be interesting for people to hear, what have you learned actually over the past 15 years?

[00:10:58.71] Well, I think there are many major messages. There's a new chapter in the book on learning. It seems surprising now looking back in 2008 that, that didn't figure as much despite the title. The criticism is that you can't see learning. It's not visible. And my argument is that's correct. That's why the book's called that because we want to try and make that learning more visible.

[00:11:22.49] That learning is always about something. And that is really critical to the whole equation. And teachers actually don't cause learning. It's the kids that create the learning. And so trying to make that more clear, the concept of clarity, I underestimated that. And our colleagues Doug Fisher, Nancy Frey really highlighted that for me. I have moved to my feedback work. Not just looking at the feedback that's given, but also how it's received.

[00:11:51.14] I've learned a lot about that. I've probably spent-- 2008, I did struggle with the effect size of teaching methods. And I probably spent more time worrying about that since. And it wasn't until I will spend a lot of time trying to understand some of the low effects, like the low effect of problem-based inquiry discovery. It's very low effects. And I spent a lot of time going back through all those meta-analysis.

[00:12:15.15] And in fact, it was Philip Dewey from Switzerland who brought to my attention one of their studies of problem-based learning in medical school. Effect size in first year is zero to negative. Effect size in fourth year, 0.4. And then it became pretty obvious what was going on, that if students don't have the content before they go into problem based, it doesn't work. It exclude it.

[00:12:37.62] And so I've developed in the new book, this notion of intentional alignment. That we have various levels of complexity of what we want to teach. The content, the relationships between the content, and the transfer. And different teaching methods affect those outcomes. Now, here's the bad news, Peter. By age eight, most kids learn despite what teachers say, what learning is about is knowing what. And no matter what teachers say, it comes back to that.

[00:13:06.30] And the argument I'm putting in the book is OK to be greedy. We can go for all levels for knowing lots, the knowing how, the relationship between ideas, and the knowing with the transfer. The learning strategies differ, depending on the level of complexity. The teaching methods differ. And once that model was developed, suddenly, a lot of the teaching strategies made a lot of sense.

[00:13:31.06] Here's the weird thing. There are hardly any teaching methods that exist that cover all three levels of cognitive complexity. Jigsaw is the only one. Maybe, the padiham notion that comes out of North Carolina is pretty close. The other thing that I find fascinating, Peter, is that there's virtually no research on the quality, the impact of lesson planning, of lesson plans. And there's a massive gap, particularly given the workload that teachers put into that.

[00:13:57.58] So it's not what I've just learned, it's what I've learned that we don't know much about. And then coming to the heart of what you do in your day life, how do you get this message across in schools about what the story is? Every teacher who ever has been in the profession has a very strong theory of teaching. I have a theory of teaching. Mine's not necessarily right or wrong.

[00:14:21.18] And how do you actually have that conversation? So it's not just someone listening to tips or tricks, but you're actually getting to that deeper understanding of what happens. And in the new book, I look at not only the mind frames of teachers, and leaders, and students, and parents, and climate, and culture, but also underlying that is this notion of how we make evaluative decisions to do this rather than that.

[00:14:48.28] How we-- and I like the word, evaluative, because it puts the emphasis on value. How do we make those value decisions in here, in the moment of the classroom to focus here rather than there? That's the essence of the expertise. So that's what a lot of the new book goes into.

[00:15:03.00] PETER DEWITT: I think one of the things that I always got from you over the years is that the research is important. Obviously, we know that. Effect size is all of that. But I think part of what I've learned from you is that the larger message is really to just let's talk about what teaching and learning looks like, to just have the conversation.

[00:15:28.27] Because too often, I feel like people, especially, maybe, during COVID and after COVID, they go in to teach. But they don't really take time to talk about what they're learning in the process. And I feel like even when I'm working with districts-- districts are big on saying, their principals need to be instructional leaders. But when you go to a district meeting, leaders are being talked at.

[00:15:54.53] And I feel like your work has always been about let's have the conversation about what these things could look like. Would that be fair to say? Because I think if you want to go into the weeds, the research can be very complicated. But I think the other side, the very practical side is to say, can we at least take time to sit back and actually talk about teaching, and learning, and what's working and what's not within our schools. Would that be fair to say?

[00:16:24.93] JOHN HATTIE: Peter, we ask students to come to school. Actually, we don't ask them, we make it compulsory to come to school because we believe that our model of schooling, excuse me, makes a difference to the student's learning, love of learning, joy of learning, and learning about. I don't see why it's any different when we talk about teachers. The same model, we should apply.

[00:16:46.55] And we know that in classrooms, that balance between monologue and dialogue is pretty critical. We know that understanding how students are thinking, how they're processing, how they're appreciating classes. And all that is absolutely critical. It's no different with adults.

[00:17:04.49] And you're right, so much professional learning. And we sometimes don't know-- oops, sometimes we don't know why the teachers are in the room. They don't know why they're in the room-- oops, they have to be there. I'm just watching. I thought my mute was on. Sorry. I've got a cold, Peter. So I'm--

[00:17:25.58] PETER DEWITT: Oh, no, I'm sorry. I feel like I caught you at a bad time. But I'm thankful--

[00:17:29.41] JOHN HATTIE: It's not a flu. It's only a cold. And so why the teachers are in the room. And sometimes, we're not very good at diagnosis of understanding. Sometimes, we don't appreciate that teachers have very strong theories of teaching. And we just-- oh, excuse me. And we don't acknowledge that. Peter, your work and Jenny's Donoghue's work on collective efficacy is very much based on listening to the perceptions, the views of the people in the room, as opposed to talking to them.

[00:18:02.53] It involves social sensitivity. That ability to demonstrate that you do understand what other people are saying. I'm not saying that does not exist in professional learning. That would be wrong. But so often, professional learning is seen as come in here, someone give a talk. And we know the effect size of that. It's extremely low. It's getting into that brain. It's getting into that understanding. It's hearing what your theory of teaching is, Peter.

[00:18:27.29] One of the things I think that teachers struggle with is evidencing their impact. Because to them, it's obvious. But unfortunately, it's not as obvious as they think it is. And one of the beauties of teachers is teachers are brilliant critics. And we can use that too. It's positive to say, how do we get other critics? Or whether that evidence is sufficient or whether it's powerful enough.

[00:18:46.75] And this is really getting to the heart of what you do in your collective efficacy. But you can-- but my point being is it does require a dialogue. And so yes, in the same way it does in the classroom. And as many of my critics say, of course, it's different when you're talking with five-year-olds, and 15-year-olds, and 45-year-olds. I don't think it is that much.

[00:19:06.91] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. I feel like when-- part of what's interesting to me is that, do you think that teachers understand their theory of teaching?

[00:19:25.03] JOHN HATTIE: Oh, I think--

[00:19:25.66] PETER DEWITT: Teachers have a theory of teaching. Do you think they understand-- do you think they know what their theory of teaching is like? I was talking to somebody today about self-awareness and leadership, which is a topic that I'm deeply interested in right now. And how self-aware are you of your leadership styles? And I had a couple of principals today just say things like, I'm a transformational leader. I'm like, could you tell me more?

[00:19:48.98] And I felt like it was something they just grabbed at and used the words. But they didn't have a deep sense of that. Do you think people have a theory of their own teaching?

[00:20:00.04] JOHN HATTIE: You're right. They use certain words. And that can be misleading. But I think if you actually spent time with that leader about, how do you make the decisions? Why do you focus on this rather than that? How do you-- what's your concept of impact of the school? What's your narrative you want to have? They can wax lyrical about all that.

[00:20:17.38] Now, to say it brings together in a developed theory may be a bit strong. But they do have very strong views about why they do this rather than that. And it's like-- take, for example, the concept of evidence. Some think that evidence is what they see in the classroom. But as Graham Nuttall shows, they don't see 80% of what happens in the classroom. Some of them think evidence is that kind of stuff.

Episode Video

John Hattie

John Hattie, PhD, is an award-winning education researcher and best-selling author with nearly thirty years of experience examining what works best in student learning and achievement. His research, better known as Visible Learning, is a culmination of nearly thirty years synthesizing more than 2,100 meta-analyses comprising more than one hundred thousand studies involving over 300 million students around the world. He has presented and keynoted in over three hundred international conferences and has received numerous recognitions for his contributions to education. His notable publications include Visible Learning, Visible Learning for Teachers, Visible Learning and the Science of How We Learn; Visible Learning for Mathematics, Grades K-12; and 10 Mindframes for Visible Learning.

Peter M. DeWitt

Peter DeWitt (Ed.D) is the founder and CEO of the Instructional Leadership Collective. He was a K-5 teacher for 11 years and a principal for 8 years. For the last 10 years, he has been facilitating professional learning nationally, and internationally, based on the content of many of his best-selling educational books.

DeWitt's professional learning relationships are a monthly hybrid approach that includes both coaching and the facilitating workshops on instructional leadership and collective efficacy.

Additionally, in the Summer of 2021, DeWitt created a year long on-demand, asynchronous coaching course through Thinkific where he has created a community of learners that include k-12 educators in leadership positions.

DeWitt's work has been adopted at the state level, university level, and he works with numerous school districts, school boards, regional networks, ministries of education around North America, Australia, Europe, Asia, the Middle East and the U.K.

Peter writes the Finding Common Ground column for Education Week, which has been in circulation since 2011. In 2020 DeWitt co-created Education Week's A Seat At the Table where he moderates conversations with experts around the topics of race, gender, sexual orientation, research, trauma and many other educational topics.

Additionally, DeWitt is the Series Editor for the Connected Educator Series (Corwin Press) and the Impact Series (Corwin Press) that include books by Viviane Robinson, Andy Hargreaves, Pasi Sahlberg, Yong Zhao and Michael Fullan.

He is the 2013 School Administrators Association of New York State's (SAANYS) Outstanding Educator of the Year, and the 2015 Education Blogger of the Year (Academy of Education Arts & Sciences), and sits on numerous advisory boards.

Peter is the author, co-author or contributor of numerous books. Click on title to purchase. They include:
Dignity for All: Safeguarding LGBT Students (Corwin Press. 2012).

Flipping Leadership Doesn't Mean Reinventing the Wheel (Corwin Press. 2014)

Collaborative Leadership: 6 Influences That Matter Most (Corwin Press/Learning Forward).

School Climate: Leading With Collective Teacher Efficacy (Corwin Press/ Ontario Principals Council. 2017).

Coach It Further: Using the Art of Coaching to Improve School Leadership (Corwin Press. 2018).

Instructional Leadership: Creating Practice Out Of Theory (Corwin Press. 2020).

Collective Leader Efficacy: Strengthening the Impact of Instructional Leadership Teams (Corwin Press. Learning Forward. 2021).

De-implementation: Creating the Space to Focus on What Works (Corwin Press. 2022).

Leading with Intention - Developing self-awareness to fostering an unreasonable human interconnectedness to impact the school community (co-authored with Michael Nelson. Corwin Press. 2024).

Peter's articles have appeared in educational research journals at the state, national and international level. His books have been translated into numerous languages.

Some of the organizations Peter has worked with are the American Association of School Administrators (AASA), Learning Forward, National Association of Elementary School Principals (NAESP), University of Oklahoma, Cognition Education (New Zealand), Australian Council for Educational Leaders (ACEL), Victoria Department of Education (Australia), University of Rotterdam (Netherlands), Washington Association of School Administrators (WASA), Texas Association of School Administrators (TASA), the National Education Association (NEA), New Brunswick Teacher's Association (Canada), the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP), Education Scotland (Scotland), Glasgow City Council (Scotland), Kuwait Technical College (Kuwait) the National Association of School Psychologists, ASCD, l’Association des directions et directions adjointes des écoles franco-ontariennes (ADFO), the Catholic Principals’ Council of Ontario (CPCO), and the Ontario Principals’ Council (OPC), National School Climate Center, GLSEN, PBS, NPR, BAM Radio Network, ABC, and NBC's Education Nation.

Learn more about bringing Peter DeWitt to your school or district at petermdewitt.com

Michael Nelson

There is no more noble profession than that of an educator was what Michael Nelson’s mom said almost every day while he was growing up. For almost 40 years, Michael has been an educator. His mom would be pleased.

Even though Michael still considers “teacher” as his primary title, he has served in roles of principal, district instructional leader, superintendent, and currently as assistant executive director developing programs and initiatives for superintendents and district leaders in the state of Washington.

One foundational leadership value in which Michael leads is the development of a kind, compassionate, and empathetic culture rooted in belonging and equity. He describes his leadership work as building human connectedness, recognizing you must always model what you lead as you build teams of individuals supporting students in their learning. The Muckleshoot Indian Tribe awarded him with their official blanket for building a collaborative partnership between the Tribe and school district, the highest honor of the Tribe and the first non-Tribal member to receive this blanket.

Michael has received many state and national awards during his time as a principal and superintendent. As a principal, he was acknowledged by Pacific Lutheran University as its Outstanding Recent Alumni in 1997. At the same time, the school he was leading as principal received the National Blue Ribbon Award from the United States Department of Education.

As a superintendent, he was named Washington state’s 2019 Superintendent of the Year. During his tenure as superintendent, Michael was elected President of the Washington Association of School Administrators (WASA) by his peers.

While WASA President, he was one of two superintendents in the nation selected to participate in the Embark Program facilitated by the United States Navy. He spent time on the USS Ronald Reagan learning from all levels of the men and women serving on this aircraft carrier. He also has received the Washington State Association of Supervision and Curriculum Development Educating the Whole Child Award.