What Really Matters to You? Setting Boundaries to Sustain

Series 1 Teacher to Teacher Podcast

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[00:00:02.60] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher To Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.89] In every episode Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher To Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:48.36] TORI BACHMAN: Hello. Welcome to the Teacher To Teacher podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin Editor and a Co-organizer of this podcast which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their classrooms.

[00:01:06.15] We believe we're all constantly learning, and we're learning together. To share their wisdom with us today we have two fantastic teacher guests, Meghan Raftery and Dave Stewart Jr. I want to introduce them to you now.

[00:01:20.66] Meghan Raftery is a freelance educator from Virginia Beach. Meghan is the host of an educator design collaborative called Edjacent, which is committed to creating sustainable education systems through care and advocacy for educators and caregivers. You can learn more about her and her work at www.edjacent.org. We'll drop that in the show notes as well.

[00:01:44.81] And Meghan is also one of the educators who is featured in Carol's recent book titled When I Started Teaching I wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom For Beginning Teachers. Hey, Meghan. Thank you for talking with us today?

[00:01:57.91] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Great to be here. Thank you.

[00:02:01.12] TORI BACHMAN: I also want to introduce you to Dave Stuart Jr. Dave is a high school ELA teacher and a world history teacher in a small town in West Michigan. He has been writing for teachers in books and on his website davestuartjr.com since 2012. Dave has authored two books so far with Corwin and co-authored a third. His two current bestsellers are The Six Things and The Will to Learn, Cultivating Student Motivation Without Losing Your Own. Hi, Dave. Thank you for being here.

[00:02:37.73] DAVE STUART JR: Hello, Tori and crew. I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:41.57] TORI BACHMAN: Yes. We have all been looking forward to this conversation. And we're really appreciative of the time you're taking to talk with us so that we can all learn with you and from you. So I will turn this over to Carol now.

[00:02:55.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Hi, everyone. Thanks, Dave and Meghan for joining us. And I just want to say a little bit to our listening audience that I find these conversations very stimulating. And they help us as teachers and listeners to integrate the wisdom that we have inside of us with each other.

[00:03:19.94] So Teacher To Teacher is about these two teachers on this show, and also all the teachers that are listening that can apply the wisdom that we're hearing into our day-to-day practice. Whether you're in the K-12 classroom, pre K-12, kindergarten, or you're in an organization or a structure, a system that is supporting teachers who are in the classroom.

[00:03:44.80] Because the bottom line is we're all doing this to help our students be the most successful that they can be as contributing citizens in our society. So thanks for being here and being willing to share what you know.

[00:04:00.80] So to get started, let's get the context, let's lay the groundwork for why you chose this profession, how you decided to become either a high school teacher-- or a Meghan can share your entry into teaching. And then how you ended up where you are now as an author or a CEO of your own organization. So Dave, let's start with you. What's your story? What's your story?

[00:04:26.83] DAVE STUART JR: What's my story? Well, Carol, I was one of those people that thought they were going to be a doctor. And really just thought that because it sounded cool. I didn't have any actual good reason.

[00:04:42.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Nobody wanted you to be a doctor? Was somebody pushing--

[00:04:45.43] DAVE STUART JR: No, it wasn't a familial pressure thing. It was like an internal pressure to make good on the opportunities I've been given I guess. So thankfully in college I had two transformative experiences. I spent time with young people at a boys and girls club, and I spent time in the hospital shadowing doctors. And one of those I loved and one I did not.

[00:05:08.89] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's how it happens from life experience. That's a life experience. And why did you choose high school English of all the majors? You have to pick a level when you become a teacher. Some people are like, I'm never going to teach high school. I'm not going to teach first grade, kindergarten. We make this decision in college and choose a level. So how did you choose that level?

[00:05:32.27] DAVE STUART JR: I know. It is a little unfortunate, I think, that we have to pick because you end up with these weird teacher shortages. And sometimes folks discover middle of their career like, I wish I could go back and teach fourth grade but I'm not certified. And I kind of have to restart my life, almost, to get that certification.

[00:05:50.88] So I just knew that I-- I mean, I was going to be an English major even with the pre-med classes as my extracurriculars. I loved literature, I loved reading and writing. And so it was a no brainer to me to be a teacher of that. Those were some of my most--

[00:06:09.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It was your love, yeah. You loved it.

[00:06:11.30] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah, yeah, I just-- so I thought that would be a blast. And history I had liked too in high school, so I kind of picked those.

[00:06:19.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And where did you student teach? Any memorable experiences from student teaching in that college experience or--

[00:06:27.60] DAVE STUART JR: Interestingly, the student teaching placement I had was in Ypsilanti, Michigan in a high school that has since shut down. But I remember the first PD that I ever received-- and I didn't even know it was called that-- it was-- some listeners may be familiar with Ron Clark who's like a, I don't know--

[00:06:48.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: He was a teacher, motivational teacher.

[00:06:50.89] DAVE STUART JR: Totally, totally. So--

[00:06:52.03] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I had a video of him from North Carolina or something, yes.

[00:06:55.84] DAVE STUART JR: He came-- well, and there was a made for TV movie about him with Mat Perry in the lead role.

[00:07:01.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh.

[00:07:03.95] DAVE STUART JR: But he just has this very over the top, like, this super exuberant overflowing, filling whole auditorium with energy personality and these very amazing inspiring stories. And that really marked me. When I was an early teacher, my first year of teaching, Ron Clark was my North Star in terms of who I was seeking to emulate.

[00:07:31.15] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I think he wrote a book too. Did he write a book? Yes.

[00:07:34.39] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah it's called The Essential 55. And it's these 55 rules that he would teach his fifth grade students. And through these rules, teach them about life and character and all these things. And, I mean, I literally tried to use those in my first few months of teaching to horrendous effect.

[00:07:55.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, I have that book as well. And I watched him, and he inspired me. And it's just that energy that you get when-- that's in spirit, inspiration. Like it's physical. It's like a physical reaction to these motivational speakers. But isn't it cool that it was a teacher doing this? Usually it's entertainers or comedians and sports people, whatever. So thanks for sharing that. And you are still teaching. How many years are you there?

[00:08:28.56] DAVE STUART JR: I'm about-- I'm in the middle of my career. The murky middle where you don't even know how many years you've been teaching.

[00:08:35.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I know. Is it 18? Is it 16?

[00:08:37.68] DAVE STUART JR: You're like I don't know.

[00:08:38.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I don't know.

[00:08:39.90] DAVE STUART JR: I don't plan to stop anytime soon. And it's been a while.

[00:08:45.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But you're still inspired through your writing. So just say a little bit about how you landed-- you're in the teaching but you found this other inspiration piece to be an author, which I want our listeners to hear you could be teaching, you're in the murky middle-- I love that-- and you might have something to share. And people in the classroom might think, well, I can't do that until I stop teaching. But you didn't have to stop. So how did that happen? How did you write your first book?

[00:09:18.68] DAVE STUART JR: Our second child was due. We had just bought our first house. I needed a summer job. And I looked into selling insurance and mowing yards and-- but then I said, well, what would you really like to do? And I thought I'd love to be able to write books. I'd always dreamed of that as a kid, being a writer.

[00:09:37.23] So I just started to do some research, and it kind of all came back to you need to have your own platform so start a blog. So I said, OK, I'm going to start a blog. And did a little more research, they said, well, you should pick a topic.

[00:09:53.86] And I picked a topic that I was very weak in, standards. And I started-- this was in 2012-- I just started to write about the common core, and literally from a position of total ignorance. That was my angle. I had the ignorance about the standards angle on lock. So I would read a section, and I'd process it on my blog. I'd read a standard, and I'd process what that could look like in my classroom.

[00:10:21.04] And I literally did that all summer. And the great amazing thing about writing is it generates all these new ideas and questions. And from each position of clarity your writing brings you to, there's these new places to explore.

[00:10:38.65] And so, really, since then I've been exploring ever since. And, yeah, some books have come out of that. Books that I really believe in because they are the fruit of me trying to get clear on how to be very good at the essential parts of teaching and still have a life.

[00:11:01.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. I really appreciate your honesty and authentic perspective on how you came to choosing what you're writing about. And I haven't really heard anybody articulate it quite the way you just said it.

[00:11:23.80] And I think it's important for our listeners that I underscore this because we are all learners as well. And we often-- we talk about strengths all the time in mindset and growth, but your growth really came by you identifying something that you didn't find as compelling as your interest in literature.

[00:11:48.10] And I just find that so insightful because it fills in the gaps for where other people are struggling, and you are able to provide a platform where you weren't the expert in the content but you were the expert in the delivery so we could all read it. So, wow, bravo. I love that. That's a really creative. And you've been doing this for 10 years, and that's a sustainable perspective and beautiful journey into where you are today. So thank you so much.

[00:12:30.31] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah.

[00:12:30.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So Meghan, let's see how your-- we'll react to that story first and then let's have you share yours because you have met Dave a little bit in his famous book tours. Or how do you know of Dave? Give a little feedback of-- because most of our people don't know each other, we don't match them to know each other, but you kind of had a sneak preview. So tell me about Dave from your perspective.

[00:12:57.48] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Well, just to first react to your story, I can definitely resonate with that, like, beginner's mind perspective. I think learning out loud is really important. And a lot of times we try to pretend we're experts in things that we're not. So to be able to say that you're an expert in learning in front of people is a pretty cool perspective that I could certainly relate to, because a lot of my story is doing things before I was ready kind of thing because of circumstance.

[00:13:22.60] And so you know that one of the things that I really enjoyed about hearing Dave's talk once at a conference was that boiling down to the essentials. But it's not just the essentials, it's sort of like this is the basics of what it means to teach well.

[00:13:37.08] And then you can layer on however you want, but that becomes choice and that becomes personalized and that becomes what drives you. And that was part of what I really enjoyed about both your book and the message in that talk was kind of like, there's this core set of things that is the enough.

[00:13:52.92] And then beyond that are all these other ways that you can really make a teaching and learning experience come alive. So I definitely come from the perspective of a fan and also relating to your story and your perspective quite a bit.

[00:14:06.95] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Dave, what do you think of that? Hearing somebody give you feedback on what you're doing.

[00:14:14.79] DAVE STUART JR: It's always very enlightening to me to hear someone to articulate what I try to communicate, but in a way that's so much clearer.

[00:14:27.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: She got you, though. She--

[00:14:28.89] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I loved that.

[00:14:31.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for that Meghan. So now tell us your story and what you taught and why. Give us the works.

[00:14:42.86] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah, I have a winding road of a story as an educator. And I often will say that it seems like my invisible goal in my career is to make my job increasingly confusing to my mother. Like, to not be able to explain what--

[00:14:56.79] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What do you do?

[00:14:58.19] MEGHAN RAFTERY: --what I'm trying to do here.

[00:15:00.58] DAVE STUART JR: That's awesome.

[00:15:01.48] MEGHAN RAFTERY: I started off teaching in Pennsylvania. I don't remember ever not knowing that not-- only that I wanted to be a teacher, but that I already felt like one. Even as a kid, teacher wasn't a person standing in front of a classroom to me. Teaching and learning were verbs, things that you do, actions.

[00:15:19.68] And I think that I was a pain in the neck when I was a teenager. I was really cynical, looking around at public school and going, that's not for me. I don't like that. I wouldn't do that. This isn't the right way to do it. This is something that I think could be better just really-- I would do stupid stuff like purposely not do any of my homework and get all zeros, and then get 100% on the exam so I would get a C. And then my mom would be like, why did you get a C in this?

[00:15:44.94] And I'm like, but, look, I did this experiment and look what happened. I was always doing stuff like that. And so I think my approach to teaching even in teacher ed was kind of like that where I started-- I student taught in the lab school on my campus, which they had never let people student teach there before.

[00:15:59.70] But I didn't have a car so that was something that was really important to me, so I kind of advocated. And in my master's program, it was years ago but I used the World Campus Program as sort of like my elective online at Penn State. And then did some classes in-person which nobody had done. So I always want to make my own path.

[00:16:16.92] So I taught only for a short time in a classroom. I left way before I was ready. I still really loved it, still felt very much like a novice, but I moved to a new town in 2008. There was a financial crisis. They weren't hiring teachers in Virginia Beach at the time. And the first position that I was able to apply for was a coaching position.

[00:16:35.68] And I thought, this is ridiculous. Who would even listen to me? I'm only just starting out. But I learned a lot from the veteran teachers that I worked with, bringing in a fresh perspective but then also co-teaching with them. Got sort of rocket fueled into central office, and ended up in a curriculum teaching and learning kind of department pathway.

[00:16:55.11] I was really passionate about instructional design. I spent five or six years as a curriculum coordinator for-- Virginia Beach is a large school system. We have 86 schools, and so it was a large department that I had lots of opportunities. How I might say it, opportunities. There were some things that weren't so great on the bureaucracy side, but I learned a lot in that time.

[00:17:15.34] And I also learned that when your title says something, that's not always what you do. I think teachers could probably relate to that that we teach a lot less than people might think. There's a lot more to the job than that. And when my title said curriculum, I probably wrote the least amount of curriculum that I ever did in my whole career.

[00:17:30.34] So I really missed that and ended up finding another lane within my school system in the Department of Media and Communications as a partnerships coordinator. And that's when I started doing some curriculum design on the side. And realizing that I could do more and have a little more freedom and flexibility when I wasn't my job title, when I wasn't responsible as much for all the parts. There was really just this design part that was a little more pure.

[00:17:54.87] So that kind of gave me the confidence to leave the public school system and work for a private company where I was able to go all around the country and tour and do some really interesting things and professional development. But really focused in my zone of genius, which was mostly project-based learning and connecting school to the real world. That's kind of the thread that goes all the way through.

[00:18:15.51] But then also starting to see the job of teaching a little bit differently as this increasingly unsustainable type of a role. And I got really into advocacy for educators at that time as I was seeing that. My experiences weren't regional, they were universal in a lot of ways.

[00:18:34.29] And it just really bothered me as this default activist kind of mode to see the same problems all over the country and thinking, well, we all think these are our own. Why are we doing this over and over and over again? And where is the voice here? Who could be speaking louder about what could be different?

[00:18:51.48] And that really is what I've been focused on for the last two or three years is that transformation, advocacy for change. What is teaching and learning, really, outside of our traditional systems? And how can we optimize that for the modern time? But using the wisdom of educators to actually help amplify and make those decisions, with also the wisdom of anybody who works with and cares about kids. It's not just about people whose name is teacher or principal or something like that.

[00:19:22.32] My kids' taekwondo instructor is probably the best teacher I know in the world. And he would never say that that's what he is. But he really, really is very gifted at teaching and learning. So a winding road long answer. But I made up the term freelance educator because there wasn't a term for me. And I just do a little bit of everything, and based on what I enjoy and what matters most to me in the moment.

[00:19:44.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thanks, Meghan. So what I love about your energy and the way in which you just shared your story is you have that passion to put teacher-- the word teacher in the spotlight. And that your willingness to move to that next level or to the big picture could sound philosophical to the listeners, but what I know from working-- collaborating with you a bit is you're very practical.

[00:20:15.30] And any conversations that we have had about these big ideas really come back down to design. And, actually, what's the next step? And what can we actually do? Which is a lot like a lesson plan. So you-- it sounds like you learned-- your foundational piece of being in the classroom has supported you in your design of this company or organization that brings real teachers that are in the classroom or that dedicated their whole lives to teaching.

[00:20:49.42] So I respect you for that and your way in which you are approaching and staying with it. Staying with the support because just because a teacher leaves the classroom or is another kind of teacher, taekwondo, whatever, we are all teachers trying to have our youth be successful and happy and finding their own strengths. And to do that we have to find our own strengths and our own ways in which we can contribute.

[00:21:21.68] So I see that we do that when we reflect on what happens in our classrooms or in our organizations and we move forward. So, Dave, I'm going to ask you if you can share a story from your experience in the classroom, because it is different being in the classroom or doing a separate organization. Because I've done both.

[00:21:43.61] But I think the power is in that interaction with our students or ourselves. So what has happened-- what happened in your beginning years that formulated you into learning something that's kept you in teaching for the murky middle? What happened? Tell me a story. I like stories.

[00:22:06.67] DAVE STUART JR: You know, picture this young punk thinking he's going to be Ron Clark 2.0. So basically working-- I mean, in that movie-- and that made for TV movie-- there's this point where he works himself sick and then keeps working while at home on bed rest type illness. And that was kind of my archetype.

[00:22:29.44] And the story that I think about here is I'm sitting in the hallway during my prep, talking to my mentor Cindy. And explaining to her, like-- really complaining to her that it's not possible to do all these things. How am I supposed to do all these? And she looks at me with great patience and courtesy and gently says, yeah, you're going to have to prioritize that list of things.

[00:23:01.46] And at first I was a bit offended. Come on, everyone knows you got to prioritize. I mean, how do you think I got through college? But I think, really, my offense came from the fact that I-- she had gone right into the core of my problem, which was that I was not prioritizing. I knew in theory that you're supposed to prioritize. I think throughout my career very rarely has the problem been that I haven't had an idea of how to move forward. The problem has been that I was forgetting something essential.

[00:23:35.69] And in this case Cindy pointed out I was forgetting that, yeah, you're a human being bound by things like time and energy which are finite. You can't do it all. So you're going to have to pick. And that really did shape my career. I mean, I think all my writing has really been about, OK, if we have to pick, what do we pick? What is essential? What is the work that matters most? That's the subtitle to these six things because I've really been on a quest ever since to figure that out.

[00:24:08.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Wow. I think your mentor really served you well in listening to you. And I think the Ron Clark situation is something worth us talking about too because we have this feeling as teachers if we're not looking sick and tired and bags of papers or something, we're not working hard enough.

[00:24:30.95] I can remember someone going by my classroom-- I taught fifth grade for more than 20 years-- and going by the classroom, and all the kids were engaged and they were all doing stuff. And this adult that was in the building supporting some teachers came by and said, what are you doing? You're not doing anything. And I'm like, no, that's what I just did. I got all those kids to talk to each other and do all these stuff.

[00:24:57.93] But there's this perception if the teacher isn't dog dead tired, carrying a bunch of things, stay until midnight, burning the candle at both end-- I don't know where that came from but there's a hesitancy in teachers to prioritize. It just got mixed in. So she really helped you that-- to have you see that you could still be an excellent-- in fact, that is the excellent teacher. The teacher that can prioritize.

[00:25:28.14] But it got mixed up somehow. And I'm not sure-- I think this podcast is going to help us because these are-- you're real teachers who have been in the classroom. We have to have our next generation of teachers hearing us and saying this-- you don't need to do that. Because that's why a lot of them are quitting, is because they're trying to do what you tried to do. And you had a mentor that stopped you. But a lot of teachers don't have that. Meghan, what do you think about what I just said? Does that--

[00:26:00.81] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah. When I was student teaching, I worked for a woman who had seven children. And it was really hard for me to understand how as a college senior with literally no responsibilities couldn't get to school with my hair dry in the morning. How in the world did she organize her life? And she said to me once, she said, you can come in early, you can work through lunch, you can stay late, or you can bring work home. But if you're ever doing more than two of those at any given time, you're doing it wrong.

[00:26:28.01] And I was like, ah. That was such important advice that I've repeated multiple times. Because there are people who have different preferences anywhere on there, but if you're doing all of those, you have no life. And she just said my thing is I leave here at the end of the day. And when my kids go to sleep, then I work at night. Which means I don't come in early in the morning. And that means you need to be quiet at lunchtime because I'm working.

[00:26:49.72] So she had some really clear boundaries that there are times in my career where I did not listen to that advice, but her voice is there going, wait, you have some control here. So that's my reaction to that is to think about all of us trying to do everything. And then when you do everything, you can't really do much of anything. So she was such a good example of that for me personally.

[00:27:13.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So that relates to the priorities. And but I think I like what you said as well that fits with Dave's story is that but you get to-- we get to choose. Like I'm a night person so I write at night. And my colleague writes at 5:00 in the morning. You're not going to see me at 5:00 in the morning writing. It's not going to happen.

[00:27:32.74] But I got to choose that. It doesn't mean I still can write. I think it is about the doing of everything. So what did you-- Dave, what did you stop doing? What became the priority, based on what you just heard Meghan say, of how you balanced all that?

[00:27:53.95] DAVE STUART JR: I'm a slow learner. It took me-- that was in my first year of teaching. I taught for two more years kind of at this breakneck pace, checking more than two of the boxes that Meghan just mentioned. And then I quit, actually. We needed to move for my wife Crystal's school, so we went to New York City. And in New York City I didn't even try to get a teaching job. I just did a bunch of different odd jobs.

[00:28:20.71] So I took a year off. And I didn't know if I was going to come back. I was looking into master's degree programs. And then, really, as Providence would have it, when we relocated to Michigan, I was looking for work and I couldn't get anything but a substitute teaching gig. And it kind of reminded me of how much I love the work. But I also had this clarity now that overworking just wasn't an option. We were starting a family and I didn't like how it felt working with no life.

[00:28:57.47] So I just-- it was that second try where I really started to be serious and rigorous about just things that I would not do. And so like Meghan mentioned, her mentor's boundaries and one of mine was just I don't work at home. So if I want to get up super early, fine. Work through lunch, great. But once I'm home, I'm just not going to work at home. So I had to figure out how to make my work fit into those containers.

[00:29:29.13] And that kind of forces the prioritization. That's what I was talking about, like you got to set the constraints up and then you're going to figure out the prioritization because you just-- you have to to survive. You're going to realize some things are really, really bad when they're not done, like knowing what you're teaching tomorrow. And some things are really fine when they're never done, like updating your bulletin boards.

[00:29:54.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you can figure it out. And you can bring the students in and parents and colleagues and all kinds of things. I just appreciate your, again, your depth of feeling and honesty about that's how we lose teachers, though, is some of those teachers didn't come back. You were supposed to be teaching and writing about teaching. And that's why you're where you are.

[00:30:21.73] And Meghan is supposed to be leading in these bigger ways, but supporting teachers like you with the big ideas. And we're supposed to be doing this podcast to let the wisdom of this honest conversation. It's not like the magic bullet, it's different people's stories. And the stories, when we share them, let's someone who's listening go, wow, that was me. Or I'm not teaching and I think I'm going to go back with boundaries.

[00:30:53.95] Because it's usually not the content knowledge or the teaching skills that make people leave, it's what we're talking about right now. It's this human piece. So thanks for that story. And let's hear it. So Meghan you have a story. You were in the classroom for a few years. What happened to you that not pushed you out, but what happened that defined you as an educator supporter?

[00:31:22.21] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah, the story that I'm going to share is the one that I shared for Carol's book, with just-- I'll take a little bit of a different angle on it to elaborate a little bit. But I came of age as a teacher at the beginning of the standards-based era. So I was a freshman when No Child Left Behind passed, so the standard movement was still young and developing when I was early on in my career.

[00:31:46.28] And I was blessed to be working in a really veteran staff who was taking it very seriously. Like, what does this mean for us as experienced teachers to take this new focus on accountability and all these other things? And so there was this really rigorous environment of curriculum design and understanding by design, and essential questions and all of these kind of things that were really intriguing to me and new and everything.

[00:32:11.24] But the reality of being a teacher working with young kids-- and I taught second and fourth grade initially-- was that some of my students weren't performing like I imagined they would when I designed my perfect lessons. So I would do everything right, exactly according to the book. And this is the standard, and then there's this creative way that I'm going to do it.

[00:32:29.75] And I had certain students that would really respond to it so I had proof that it worked, but then some kids wouldn't. And my initial reaction was like, what's wrong with that kid that they're not getting this awesome lesson? Because look at all these stuff I'm doing. It was very much about me and my knowledge and what I was bringing to the table.

[00:32:44.96] And I had one student in particular that just-- I remember that we rarely made eye contact. There was just something blocking our relationship, something between us. And I kept trying to science my way out of it. I'm going to find this book she likes, I'm going to do this thing.

[00:33:00.10] And ultimately I said to my principal, I just can't figure out. I can't make a connection with this student. And she just stopped and she turned her whole body towards me and she's like, well, you better figure it out. And that was pretty much just the interaction was like, all that stuff doesn't matter in the end? You got to be able to connect with the student.

[00:33:21.62] And so I made her my project. I really started to think, how can I connect with this girl? And, ultimately, it was really easy. Once I got out of my head and I just said, who is she as a human being? It doesn't matter that she's seven, eight, nine years old. What does she care about? Talking to her about her life and her family and her interests and what she was watching on TV and what she did at recess and all these other things.

[00:33:45.22] And it was one of those things that felt really important to me, but then also became sort of a rallying point for the rest of my career was this like human connection with a child is as important as human connection with anybody.

[00:33:58.91] Having this idea that they're a whole person, and that that's the most important first step is acknowledging that, and then you can science your way around that if you want to. But that connection led to progress academically for her. But probably much more important for both of us, social emotional learning escalated as we developed our relationship together.

[00:34:19.58] And that was something that I get the impression-- I always think that-- my first principal used sometimes you get lucky that you have somebody really good. That she orchestrated that whole thing. And she was sitting back like, yeah, see, I did this. So I give her a lot of credit in that scenario. But I also think she did, to a certain extent, know exactly what she was doing. Like, to kind of push me beyond the intellectual part of teaching, and really get back to the connection.

[00:34:42.35] And that's something that I've kept with me. I haven't taught since-- I think my last year in the classroom was 2009. But if somebody asked me this morning at the dentist, what do you do? I'm a teacher. It's the first thing that comes out of my mouth because that's never left me. That's what I do. And then they say, what do you teach? And then I'm like, oh, that's like a whole complicated thing to answer.

[00:35:01.13] [LAUGHTER]

[00:35:02.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What would your mother say?

[00:35:03.74] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah, exactly. So that bit of just feeling that teaching is like who I am as a human, and that the point of that isn't about me as a teacher, it's about the person on the receiving end and what that relationship looks like, that is transferable, really, to any role in education.

[00:35:19.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes. And interesting that you both had these mentors, the principal and the mentor, who encouraged you in certain ways to be the best version of your teacher self from the outside, but not giving-- not telling you how to do it.

[00:35:39.06] And it's also interesting that your stories relate to standards, which is the blog standard. And that the outside policy, public policy and the initiatives from outside of us dominate and sometimes take over that personal piece that brought everybody into teaching. So we have to--

[00:36:04.79] DAVE STUART JR: They invade our narratives--

[00:36:05.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right, right. I like that. So what did you think of her-- that story then, Dave? What Meghan just shared about what happened about not connecting with a kid and have a person say, figure it out. It's on you.

[00:36:19.07] DAVE STUART JR: I love what her principal said. That's real talk.

[00:36:22.48] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Real talk.

[00:36:23.08] DAVE STUART JR: One of the things that drives me nuts sometimes in education is when we talk around things and don't just place responsibility on shoulders. I think that's one really key to connecting with my students is I not in a-- like just like that principal, not in a mean way, not that you're bad, be ashamed way, but just a, hey, this is something that you've gotta to own.

[00:36:48.57] MEGHAN RAFTERY: And implied there in figure it out is I believe you can figure it out, which I think is an incredibly respectful message.

[00:36:54.25] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:36:54.87] DAVE STUART JR: Totally.

[00:36:55.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: To tell you how to do that.

[00:36:57.31] DAVE STUART JR: That enlarges you, you know. That principal, sort of, gave you a mantle. And I think that that's just a beautiful, beautiful move for a leader to make. But it can only be made from a position that clearly she held in your heart. She had a connection with you, and that's why she could say that to you. Well, you better figure it out.

[00:37:26.26] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:37:26.83] DAVE STUART JR: Because that was a relationship of safety. And, yeah, what a cool story.

[00:37:33.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's very cool. Thank you both for that. So let's just talk just a bit about how the standards showed up in both of your stories, and how that needs to be addressed in our teaching. What do you think?

[00:37:51.05] I don't have any answer, but I know it just showed up as important because you talked about writing about standards that you didn't know and unpacking them. And then you came in on the standards and PD, professional development standards and putting all this information into teachers. How does that relate to your work in your organization or classroom?

[00:38:18.44] DAVE STUART JR: I would love to hear what Meghan

[00:38:20.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You are going to make her go first?

[00:38:22.73] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah.

[00:38:23.51] MEGHAN RAFTERY: I mean, one of the things that I want to be like crystal clear about is that I'm not inherently against standards. I think it's really important that we have them. I just got really curious really early in my career about who was making these things. Like who decided? Where did these come from? And why are these the ones? And then why were there 16 in 2005 and then 25 in 2006 and then 48 in 2007 and then 192 by the time we got to 2010? I kept wondering.

[00:38:52.77] Everybody would say they, they, they, they made this, they said we had to. I'm like, I'm sitting here in my little tiny rural school in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania, and somebody handed me like this printed document this thick. Who is they? And what are they thinking? So--

[00:39:06.95] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, I love it.

[00:39:08.18] MEGHAN RAFTERY: --my trajectory was like trying to get closer to the decision making part of where did these standards come from instead of just saying, this is it and I'm going to make it work, which I tried to do really early in my career. Was like, somebody must be smart enough to have figured this out and have done this. When I got a little more confident a little bit later I was like, wait, I kind of feel like I have some expertise in this area. I have opinions about this. Where do I go put them?

[00:39:35.02] And so that really drove me moving forward to the point where I sat on standard setting committees or I got to actually make some local standards for some projects over time. And it gave me a lot of respect for the work and what has to go into it, but also helped me to understand how values are infused into standards and how they kind of become this sort of like cultural relic.

[00:39:59.56] And it was really important for me to think about to what extent can teachers individually have some say in that bottom line. Because for a long time they really did have the power to say here's what's most important in my course and what kids are going to learn.

[00:40:17.08] And it's not that we should go all the way back to that, but I think there's some balance between expert teachers, experienced teachers being able to give some opinion and value, and then some other things that are kind of non-negotiable. But I got really curious about, like, why these things.

[00:40:34.25] And I think that bubbled up for me again during the pandemic when we were in that sort of emergency schooling mode and my kids who were in kindergarten and second grade at the time were learning in my laundry room.

[00:40:44.77] And I'm like, is this really, like, right now while we can't even leave the house-- the most important thing-- that we're going to really double down on? And we haven't even touched this, this, and this, which are the most important to me as a mom, to my child as a human. So I've been really critically looking at that kind of stuff again. I think for a while I let it go. I'm back there again in this--

[00:41:06.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I hear it. I hear it, girl.

[00:41:08.48] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Why? Why this? Why not that? Who gets to say?

[00:41:11.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You've been doing that forever since you were in school. Get the three zeros and then the 100.

[00:41:17.75] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Why this is not it? What really matters here?

[00:41:20.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. But, Dave, that's your story too. What really matters? What's essential? What that was drawn Clarks? What's the essential? So how does this relate to your work and your writing and who you are as a teacher and why you're still teaching?

[00:41:37.99] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah. I mean, one thing that I like to always remind myself of is that this whole endeavor of trying to provide an equitable public education to all citizens in a country the size of the United States-- which is where we're all based on this podcast-- is a super new thing in world history.

[00:41:57.78] So basically we don't have a huge clue about how to do this. So standards, high stakes tests, teacher evaluation models are like three sources, I would say, of rampant dehumanization. Meaning they make people feel like they're not people, teachers and students and administrators.

[00:42:27.04] They have these huge dehumanizing side effects that I think are really important for all of us to be aware of because I don't know a way to stay engaged in my work without being able to say-- to name like, yeah, I really feel not good when I'm reduced to this EBE number at the end of the year.

[00:42:46.93] I don't care what the number is. It's just not a good feeling to clash my wife or teaching. This deep sense of purpose that I have that my work exists, my classroom exists, my school exists to promote the long term flourishing of young people by teaching them to master things. That's what school is for.

[00:43:07.96] Taking that and jamming that up against this one size fits all EBE rubric or one size fits all standardized test it's just-- I just don't think that there's a way that that's ever going to not be a little bit dehumanizing. You're trying to mass produce something that is really individual.

[00:43:32.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So that leads us to what we're talking about today is the sharing of the wisdom, because the big container is this bureaucratic system. Well, they are systems. I mean, systems--

[00:43:45.70] DAVE STUART JR: And that's the reality of-- that's the reality, right?

[00:43:49.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Exactly.

[00:43:49.88] DAVE STUART JR: You're not going to get around that. You have to accept that you work inside of a large system.

[00:43:56.23] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. But I think what we're all saying is, how do we do that? And that's the teacher to teacher thing is the people who are doing it, let's share how we do it because we did come in because we loved it. But I do like to point out, I don't want to be a Pollyanna. I mean, it's challenging, and that's why we're doing it. That's why we're sharing these ideas.

[00:44:20.77] So what the listeners like to get in these podcasts is, OK, great philosophical conversation. And we can relate to it. And I think it's important for us to do this from time to time because I don't want it to just be the basic teaching essentials, but we do want that too. So we want it all, right.

[00:44:41.18] So let's just share a couple of things that work for experienced teachers so that the beginners don't have to just reinvent the wheel every year. And so what do you got Meghan? What worked when you were there or you've observed, because you work with tons of teachers, that you think is worth our listeners' time.

[00:45:06.66] MEGHAN RAFTERY: The tip that I'd like to share I think is-- let me be very clear, I was a novice teacher who never really got to be who I maybe could have been if I stayed longer in the classroom. I spend a lot of time mourning that in my career. But there are some things that I'm pretty proud of that, especially as a mom, that I look back on and I think, well, as like a 22-year-old goon, I didn't know this when I was talking to a mom. But that's something I feel really good about.

[00:45:34.23] And one of those is that while we're on the theme of standards, my school system very early on was a standards-based grading system where it was like, this is the standard, you give an indication of proficiency to that standard versus an A in science or social studies or whatever.

[00:45:50.21] And it felt very cold to me as a teacher. I felt like it didn't always tell the whole picture what the student could do or what progress they were making. So I had one of those old teacher grade books that's just-- or the planning books that's just the grid, with the boxes down one side and the boxes across the top. And I would write my subject area plans, or just the titles of them, and then use that blank space for anecdotal notes for my students.

[00:46:15.57] So the students were all a number. And then I had a green, a red, and a yellow marker. And so we would do some sort of exit ticket something, something, during that time. Then I'd write the standard. And then I'd have one through 25, yellow, red, green, yellow, red, green. And if it was green, most of the time that didn't mean anything. I'd look at the yellows and the reds and see what was there.

[00:46:33.45] But I tried to, at the end of the day, take a look at those colors and then stick a couple post-it notes on there. Like something notable about this. That Carol really struggled today with multi-digit multiplication. But I noticed that when she used the manipulatives, she felt more confident. Let's do that again tomorrow because then that's a really great scaffold for her to be able to x, y, z.

[00:46:54.75] And one of the things that I felt really empowered to do with those notes and that plan book that got fatter and fatter was in parent conferences, it was their favorite thing, was to hear those stories. They ultimately would see the report card, they'd see these numbers. They aren't always super parent-facing report cards. They don't say much, but I could be really clear.

[00:47:16.80] Yes, DPE looks to you like a C or a D. And you're trained to think that's bad. But let me tell you about where we started and where we got to when it came to this particular thing. And so I think that data matters, standards matter, having the information is really important. But when it comes to the ultimate communication of learning, that goes to the learner and the people who love them.

[00:47:39.57] And if you have stories that you can tell that support the data, they don't even care about the data in the end. They're just glad that you saw their kid, you made this really, again, human connection, and that you see the work they're putting in and the strengths that they have. And there's more to it than just those numbers.

[00:47:56.59] So the numbers give you a starting point. I really love a good graph. I love to be able to show how things grow and change over time. But documenting even simply just little ways to say, here's something I can say about a student. And I would look back on that at the end of the week and go, who's not here? Who am I not paying attention to? Where is there no post-its for somebody? And then make that a priority for the next week to make sure that I was connecting back with those students again.

[00:48:21.84] So the tip is just simple, it's connecting the story to the information and thinking about the end user. Because the end user is that caregiver and the child, and they need to get something from this. And that's much more important than the newspaper printing your scores and your principal asking you why you had a certain number of kids that didn't get proficiency on this quarterly benchmark assessment.

[00:48:44.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you, Meghan. Dave, what do you got?

[00:48:48.70] DAVE STUART JR: Well, for classroom management there's a set of skills called warmly authoritative teacher presence. And I think this is something that you can Google right after this podcast, look at the list of skills.

[00:49:07.78] And then whether you record yourself on video, practice it in the mirror, stand in front of your empty classroom and practice it, do it with a colleague. But this is stuff they actually get up and practice doing so. Things like what you're doing with your eyes, your mouth, your posture, the tone of voice, cadence of speech.

[00:49:37.21] It's a very powerful thing to habituate that can kind of ameliorate a lot of common problems that teachers have, especially early in their careers with classroom management. It doesn't replace things like routine and classroom policies and things like that, but it just is a wonderful lubricant for the machinery of a classroom with all these people. Warmly authoritative teacher presence.

[00:50:07.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. What did you change after learning that system? Did you-- what did you practice or what did you notice about yourself for this?

[00:50:17.51] DAVE STUART JR: I mean--

[00:50:18.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Did your presence, was it--

[00:50:19.49] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah, you feel much better when you're using your body in a way that's confident. When you're physically positioning yourself with your feet, shoulder width apart. Your back straight.

[00:50:33.89] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: The learning.

[00:50:34.75] DAVE STUART JR: When you're looking at all of your students, when you're trying to smile with your eyes is a part of that. Yeah, you just feel better. And I think it's just easier to connect with students and create the type of environment that I think we all want, which is enjoyable and productive.

[00:50:52.15] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you, Dave. So as we wind down, I'd like to just close with just a few more questions. Let's go over to Meghan. Can you just share a little bit about your organization and how you help teachers?

[00:51:14.74] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah. Edjecent is called Edjecent with an E, but it's named for a philosophy called the adjacent possible, with an A, which basically talks about how innovation often happens on the edges of existing systems.

[00:51:32.66] So the concept of Edjecent is really just bringing educators together. And not just educators, but also anybody who works directly with kids to say, how might we influence innovation and change outside of systems, but right next to them so that those systems can actually change.

[00:51:49.01] So that's like a philosophical part of it. But the main underpinning is we basically talk a lot about how the caregivers of children, the people that kids trust the most, the adults in their life, are what we call the first responders to the future. They're the people who will be most influential on what the world looks like five, 10, 20 years from now because they're the influencers of the young people.

[00:52:12.95] And we feel really strongly at Edjecent that you can say all you want what the future should look like. You can tell kids, here's the bank account you need to open and the stay away from this and do this or whatever else it is. If you're not modeling a good, healthy, happy, sustainable life to children, you are not teaching them about what the future could look like.

[00:52:34.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what do you do to take care of yourself? How do you keep your energy?

[00:52:38.86] DAVE STUART JR: Well, Carol, I like to take a little walk every now and then. Straight out my classroom door, there's a little spot that's kind of wooded about five minutes exactly from my classroom door. And I just-- I take that 10 minutes to completely unplug, walk out there.

[00:52:57.50] Once I get far enough from school, I can start talking to myself if I so desire. Need to work something out. And then usually by the time I'm back-- I mean, without fail-- I have a new perspective. And it's just so easy when you're on your prep or if you're working after school to just get an hour in and you just can start to feel all this angst inside. And that really breaks that up and allows it to clear.

[00:53:24.87] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right, that physical movement does make a difference. It's the stepping up. And I think outside it does make a difference. And I'm glad it's something to do, but like you said Dave, you have to make it a priority. And you can only do two things out of the list morning, noon, night. It can't be all of them. So it looks like you fit that one in.

[00:53:50.64] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah.

[00:53:51.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And Meghan, what do you have that you do to keep yourself joyful?

[00:53:56.12] MEGHAN RAFTERY: Yeah, I did a survey recently for a project with pre-service teachers. And one of the things that I noticed that a lot of the answers would say things like, I hope I work in a school where people-- I hope I work for an administrator who-- like this kind of crossing your fingers and wishing that the people you work with are going to be mentors. Like Dave and I both talked about mentors that we've had or people that have influenced us.

[00:54:18.07] I think for me one of the ways that I keep myself sustained is by choosing my company. And I choose people who are generally hopeful about the future of education, the future of the world, the way things are right now. I mean, there's a lot of challenge, there's a lot of problems, there's a lot of things that don't go well.

[00:54:35.89] But if you constantly talk about those things instead of this idea of hope, you get really weighted very quickly. And for me, I've always tried to find people who bring me hope, who are hopeful themselves, and then stay connected to them, which takes some work.

[00:54:52.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, I choose all of you because I feel like this was a hopeful conversation. And I choose Corwin, my publisher, because this is a publisher that has integrity and values for teacher voices and putting out podcasts like this because this is what we need right now.

[00:55:12.67] Now, Dave, we got a little cut on you. I want to just hear a little bit about your writing and your book. I know you're not-- it's not a joyful process all the time when you have to put your butt in the seat and write for deadlines.

[00:55:27.42] DAVE STUART JR: But it's worth it.

[00:55:28.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, it's worth it. So give us your pitch. What's so good about your books? What is it that will help our profession? Why are you doing this?

[00:55:38.26] DAVE STUART JR: Yeah, I mean, I do it because it's very helpful to me personally to get clear on what the essential work is. So my most recent book is called The Will to Learn. And it's about helping students to care about learning not because they've been tricked into it or rewarded into it or consequenced into it, but because they believe that it's something that they would like to do. So it's called The Will to Learn. And--

[00:56:09.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What's the message? What's the message in that book? What's the will to learn mean to you?

[00:56:15.35] DAVE STUART JR: Well, it's a beliefs-based approach to cultivating student motivation. I synthesize all the research down into these five key beliefs. And you know you really can't find this approach anywhere else.

[00:56:25.60] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Let's end with a shift in your perspective over time. You've both been actively participating, as I have as well. So I used to think and now I think. So, Meghan, what did you used to think, and now what do you think?

[00:56:42.04] MEGHAN RAFTERY: I used to think that there was like this set of best practices. That if we all could just-- all teachers could master them, then we would be great. And everything would be fine. I now think that teaching is more art than science. It's both but it's more art than science.

[00:56:58.01] And there are many ways to create beautiful art. And students benefit from a variety of types of art. The more art they're surrounded by and the more ways they can see that art, they're better off. Rather than it being this one strategy that we all do really effectively.

[00:57:12.44] The novelty and the beauty, I think, of teaching and learning that's timeless beyond our current system is that there are many ways to teach someone well and there's many ways to learn. And that I love watching my own children go through school and experiencing all those different forms of art.

[00:57:29.64] And that makes me a lot-- feel a lot less pressure to get it perfectly right because I just don't think that exists. There's so many right ways to do it. And that's something that I've only learned in the second half of my career, probably.

[00:57:43.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you. All right, Dave, I used to--

[00:57:47.88] DAVE STUART JR: I used to think I had to do it all and be it all. And now I know that that's not true.

[00:57:56.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you, both, from the bottom of my heart. Very invigorating conversation. The last word from our designer here of the podcast.

[00:58:08.08] TORI BACHMAN: So one thing-- it's interesting as we are bringing folks together on this podcast, you haven't really met, you don't really know each other very well. I think that's held true through all of our episodes. But we always find these common threads and themes that emerge really naturally.

[00:58:27.85] And what came out today for me so clearly is how you both really are focused on what's essential. I've known Dave and his work for many, many years. Meghan, this is my first time meeting you. But you both said things that really meshed today. And I think the sustainability of teaching is a pretty major thing for us to focus on as a society and as a profession.

[00:58:55.89] Meghan, you said something that I wrote down here, keep an eye out for what you can control. The way you were talking about, who is they? Really spoke to me because I've asked those questions myself for my whole life as I'm sure most of our listeners have too.

[00:59:10.44] But instead of feeling constrained by the system, trapped by the system, wondering who they are, look at the things that you can control in your own practice, in your own classroom, in your-- the ways that you sustain yourself outside of the classroom. Whether it's taking a walk or calling a friend, controlling what the energy is within your circle of professional conversations. Those are all things that are within your control and really can help you in that area of prioritizing.

[00:59:50.31] And I think that's such an important message, especially for beginning teachers, early career teachers. You talking about Ron Clark was actually very interesting to me too because I have met so many teachers who have very similar stories that those Ron Clark's of the world or the like Stand and Deliver, the movies that we all watched as we were coming up in the '90s of these like heroic teachers, actually are not great.

[01:00:18.47] That's not great messaging. It's not a way to build your career or even your aspirations for teaching. So I think we have to bring that out more too in real world conversations. Like, here's the reality. You can only do so much.

[01:00:35.85] And you have to-- Dave, you said set the constraints first, which I think is a really important thing too. Set the constraints and then you can prioritize what matters most and, again, what's essential. So thank you both. It was an awesome conversation. I really enjoyed listening and learning with you. Thank you, Carol. As always just kind of pulling out the key points for us. This was really great. Thanks.

[01:01:03.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, both. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. And keep your wisdom sharing it. Keep it out there.

[01:01:12.70] SPEAKER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[01:01:29.36] Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.