Know Your Students & Learn From Your Students

Teacher to Teacher Series 1

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[00:00:03.07] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher, University educator, founder of mentoring and action.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.86] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.01] TORI BACHMAN: Hello, welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning and we're learning together.

[00:01:10.94] To share their wisdom today, we have two teacher guests who have broad experience and quite different backgrounds. And I can't wait to hear all the ways they're seemingly different journeys have connections. I will introduce now to you John SanGiovanni and Mary Margaret Marra.

[00:01:28.55] John SanGiovanni is a nationally recognized leader in mathematics education. He works in Howard County, Maryland, as a district leader of math instruction, curriculum development, professional learning, coaching, and assessment. John is also a best selling author of professional books with 15 books published by Corwin over the years, and he is a national consultant.

[00:01:52.98] John's most recent title, Daily Routines to Jumpstart Problem Solving, published earlier in 2023. Hey, John. So great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

[00:02:04.38] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:02:07.09] TORI BACHMAN: And Mary Margaret Mara is a preschool teacher for the Worcester Public Schools in Massachusetts. She's been in education for 30 years teaching preschool. And preschool is her passion, brings her great joy. In recognition of her time and dedication to young children, Mary Margaret was named Worcester Public School's teacher of the year in 2014 and she was a Massachusetts Teacher of the Year finalist in 2017.

[00:02:34.39] Mary Margaret is also one of the educators who is featured in Carol's recent book titled, When I Started Teaching I Wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi, Mary Margaret. It's really good to see you. Happy to meet you. Thanks for being with us.

[00:02:50.96] So we've all been looking forward to this conversation. And we appreciate this time together to learn with both of you. So I'm going to turn it now over to Carol to get the conversation started.

[00:03:03.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you all to all our listeners and our guests today. So this podcast is about the wisdom that the two of you will share today and that all the listeners also have. So looking at ourselves as the receptacles for improving our own teaching practices. So I like to begin every podcast with your story because I find so many of our guests and teachers enter teaching for a variety of different reasons. And you're still teaching and working in schools.

[00:03:37.63] So Mary Margaret, did you always want to be a teacher? And I see you've been teaching for 30 years. So something's working in spite of the conditions that are going on today that are coming out is pretty negative. Tell me your story. Let's hear what's going on with you.

[00:03:57.16] MARY MARGARET MARA: So I decided to become a teacher when I was young. I grew up with a language-based learning disability. Dyslexia runs through our family. And I was diagnosed with dysgraphia. So I had a hard time with the writing process. And I had significant difficulty with word retrieval as a young child.

[00:04:14.40] So elementary school was incredibly challenging for me. I was lucky enough to have a mom who was really very supportive through the whole process. She was always like-- I come home in tears and frustrated. My mom would be like, Mary, the only way through this is through this, what you need to learn how to do is to take the best of situations and move forward with that and leave the rest behind.

[00:04:39.74] So it's that whole thought process that when you stumble and you make mistakes, be reflective in the moment, learn what worked about a situation and what didn't and move forward with those pieces. So by having a lot of difficulty with word retrieval, I also spent a lot of time watching other students. And it became very clear to me over time that not everybody learns the same way. And that kind of fascinated me and that's part of the reason why early childhood, I felt so drawn to.

[00:05:09.56] You get to teach through multiple modalities, and you teach through all different types of learning styles. And I felt like the tools and the strategies that I learned to be successful in school were things that I could share with others. So when I was 13, I turned to my mom, I said, I want to learn more about early childhood education. She introduced me to the early childhood coordinator in our town. And I started volunteering in a summer program with kids that weren't quite ready to go into first grade from kindergarten. And from that moment on I just knew I wanted to teach. It felt right.

[00:05:45.38] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Wow. I think your story is the earliest student teaching experience that I've ever heard, being 13 and entering the classroom. And then many of us do decide to become teachers because we're drawn to it early in life. But your condition or your mother even mentoring you through observing other learning styles-- what a gift that is, Mary. Thank you for sharing that. I have not heard a story like that.

[00:06:18.37] John, what's your journey? Why did you decide to become a teacher? Have you decided yet, John? Have you decided?

[00:06:26.47] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I don't know what I want to do when I grow up. That's what I'm going for now. Well, so I mean, like many people, I always had a passion for learning. I love talking with others and listening to their thinking and pushing back on their thinking and such. I love social settings and interactions.

[00:06:45.25] Teaching is a social endeavor. It's about people, no matter how tall they are how old they are. I mean, that's what teaching is is knowing other people and part of their story. So the short of it is how I got here wasn't exactly planned. Originally, I was a computer science major. And I just wanted clear, that was really, really hard and it really conflicted with my social engagements in college.

[00:07:10.64] And so the short of it is I didn't do so well. So I had to find a new major. And where I was with credits, I was like, I think I like this education thing, I'll try that. And sometimes in life, you get lucky. And I got lucky because if I kept on the other things for the wrong reasons, computer science that is, I wouldn't have got to where I am today. So long story short, I became a education major and just I always wanted to be a teacher. I just didn't always know it. And it wasn't until then that I found out--

[00:07:39.92] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what was your first teaching job after college?

[00:07:42.86] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: My first teaching job after college was I was a kindergarten teacher for one year. And then I changed grades. I know, I know. I know, it was-- let's just say that I learned a lot that year. And I can't tell you all the things I learned, but it wasn't really academic things. I'm not sure that they learned a lot, but we had a good time.

[00:08:05.33] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You did have a good time, yes. And Mary, I know that you made that decision to teach, and then you ended up teaching first grade, second grade-- are you teaching first grade now primary?

[00:08:18.76] MARY MARGARET MARA: I teach preschool.

[00:08:19.93] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Preschool, preschool. Before kindergarten.

[00:08:24.19] MARY MARGARET MARA: Yeah.

[00:08:24.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, wow. So you're both in that realm. But John's writing more his math for the high school students. And what--

[00:08:32.98] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: No, actually, most of my writing is for elementary and middle school.

[00:08:36.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Elementary and middle. OK, thank you for clarifying that. And now just share a little on this journey where you are right now, what brought you to this place in your career. You made the decision, you've taught for a while, you're contributing. What's the focus now, Mary?

[00:08:58.55] MARY MARGARET MARA: I've always liked being in the classroom. So ways that I've stretched myself would be like I'm a district mentor leader for my district. I mentor many teachers. I've had several student teachers. And I'm also an adjunct for Worcester State. So I teach in their accelerated online master's program. Now I've taught an undergraduate class too. It's all focused around early childhood.

[00:09:23.01] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So I see you as a practitioner scholar, you teach at the University, you have stretched yourself, but you lead from the classroom. And you have stayed in the classroom. I know we've collaborated on many mentor preparation and support programs, and I appreciate your wisdom. And it is grounded in the classroom, and you have those stories that you can bring to the table. And tell me what you're doing right now, John? Just explain it a little bit more.

[00:09:51.83] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, so I'm a district leader for mathematics program in Howard County. And so Howard County, Maryland, is halfway between Baltimore and Washington. We're a school system of about 85 schools. And like Mary, I mean, I'm still passionate about the classroom.

[00:10:04.17] And I say that to you because my role is different today, but I make an effort to be in classrooms most every day. And curriculum folks don't always get a chance to do that. But fortunately, I can. And that's important because it helps me to think about the work that we're doing to support our teachers and how we might adjust.

[00:10:20.40] People talk about teaching learning, it doesn't change. It changes considerably year to year. But over 30 years, it really changes. And so yeah, I mean, that work is important.

[00:10:35.23] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I think it's--

[00:10:35.94] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: We need to help our teachers think about the work that they do. Go ahead.

[00:10:38.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. No, no, no, I love what you're saying, John, because I think just the fact that you make it a priority to get into classrooms is huge because we know that isn't the case in a lot of district leader levels. There's a lot of paperwork and grant writing and all of those things become important. But the transition to what's going on in the classroom I think then makes a leader, whether you're in the classroom or not-- it's more useful the kind of feedback that you're going to give because you've seen firsthand what's going on in classrooms so that you can make recommendations to district leaders. Is that what happens or-- that's the goal, right?

[00:11:24.73] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I think that's what happens. I think about the work that I do. I support district math coaches, district interventionists. I work closely with our principals. And so being in classrooms-- and also, you said it a moment ago, and that is practitioners/scholar. And so some of my work is taking the theory and the research and finding out how and helping our teachers think about how they can implement that in practical ways in the classrooms.

[00:11:49.62] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that's what I love. I mean, I have the higher education degree, the doctoral work and everything. But for me, when I work with classroom teachers, they want something they can actually use that changes and influences student learning. And a lot of the research in my doctoral program, I would just say, why are we studying this, nobody is going to use it. And yes, we do need some research. But I love that you picked up on the practitioner scholar because that's where my heart lives.

[00:12:19.05] I'd like you each to share a story of a time that you were in the classroom or working in the classroom that it impacted you in a way that this memory changed you or changed your perspective as you moved forward with your teaching or your research or something. It may be a successful experience or maybe something that was tragically a mistake and it changed you as you move forward. Mary, what comes to mind in your career?

[00:12:56.44] MARY MARGARET MARA: I'll share a little bit more detail. It's the same story that I shared in your book. And we call him Richard. That's not his real name. But it was my second year of teaching.

[00:13:07.12] And Richard was this little guy in my classroom that was a wild man. He was into everything, he was everywhere you could imagine, constantly running around the classroom, had a very high pitched voice, was very hyperactive, would steal other kids' snacks and hide out in the table and eat the snacks. And I was constantly having this feeling as a new teacher, if I just didn't have this one kid in my classroom, I'd have a great class. I was constantly struggling with how to handle his behavior.

[00:13:37.81] And what I learned over time from him was I reached out to my adjustment counselor and I said, you know what's going on, I don't know what else to do, I'd go in tears, I'm frustrated and angry and disappointed to have this kid in my class. And she said to me, Mary, you need to understand a little bit of the background knowledge. This little guy's stepfather is in the process of going to jail for dealing drugs and he's four and he's now the man of the house.

[00:14:07.51] So little by slow was starting to get more of an understanding of him. And it changed my perception for a little while. We worked together. A few months later, the behavior spikes off the charts. And I go back to the adjustment counselor and I'm like, what's going on, I don't know what to do with him now, I can't understand why the behavior is getting so rough.

[00:14:26.23] So she said to me, let's go for a walk. So we went and we did a home visit. We go to his apartment and we step into the apartment. And on the right hand side, there's one bedroom with three mattresses and just sheets. Four people slept in that one bedroom. And as you stepped in, on the left hand side, there was a brown couch.

[00:14:49.18] And I found that as the adjustment counselor and the mom were talking to one another, my eyes were immediately drawn to the kitchen window, and then back across to the kitchen wall, and then to the refrigerator. You see, what had happened was there was a drive by shooting. And the bullet had come in through the kitchen window and it had been embedded in the kitchen wall. And it had narrowly missed this little boy's mom who was standing at the refrigerator with the refrigerator door open. And all three children were sitting on that brown couch and had witnessed it happened.

[00:15:24.95] And in that moment, everything shifted. I realized in that moment that that little boy was not in my classroom to make my life more difficult. He was just trying to survive. And he was trying to survive with the weight of the world on his shoulders. I went home that night and I cried. I cried for that little boy and I thought to myself something, needs to change.

[00:15:49.46] And what I realized needed to change was me. I needed to change my attitude and my perspective and I needed to get to know him. In the next day I went in and for the rest of the year, I worked to get to know him. And once I stopped just associating him with his behavior and got to see the little boy, then I could see Richard and I could see he was funny and he was kind and he was compassionate towards his peers. And we could build on that. And developing that relationship with him made me realize how important it is to develop relationships with our students because when we treat kids with kindness and compassion and we respect and appreciate them for who they are, that's when the doors for learning start to open.

[00:16:38.79] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Mary, I think it's important for all of us to just pause and understand that it is all about our students. And there are too many of those stories that many teachers don't even know, that we never find that out. So I commend you for, as a beginning teacher, having a counselor that helped you to understand and see that. And I appreciate you sharing that on this podcast and reminding all of us how important it is to detach that behavior from the student what they're doing in our classroom and make it about them. So thank you for keeping us human and realizing the important work that teachers do and how that influence on that child could change his whole life because of your changed perspective.

[00:17:46.04] John, do you want to kind of respond to that story before you share yours?

[00:17:50.54] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think my takeaway is not going to be as powerful, that's for sure. But I do want to say that I'm reminded of those stories and those experiences and thinking that, as Mary was talking, it reminded me that every student has a story and that for a student going through a divorce at home or loss of a grandfather or something like that, there's all kinds of things that can create situations for our kids in our classrooms. And we don't know who they are and understand what's going on and know about them and how they change across the year. We can be misguided by the behaviors or the disengagement and what have you and that these are people that have feelings and experiences too. And sometimes, we can lose that.

[00:18:42.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes. Thanks, John. So what has showed up in your career as a place that made some growth or influenced in you in the way you move forward? Just a memory that stays with you.

[00:19:00.06] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I mean, I think we all have so many memories about things that we've learned across the years. I have silly things about like why are their shoestrings wet when it hasn't rained in months. But don't want to get into that one. I'm going to get into learning like when I as a teacher thought that I was the purveyor of knowledge and that I told them how and what they needed to know. And it wasn't until I remember Brooke one year saying to me when we were learning about multiplication and she saw the arrays and she said, is that why they're called square numbers, when she was working with area.

[00:19:35.81] And I was just thinking about I knew what a square number was and square roots and things like that, but I never actually understood why they called them square numbers. And when I saw the area of being a square and it dawned on me and I was like, yeah, that's exactly why I say this to the listener because there's so much to learn about anything we teach. And to think that we are the only ones who know it is foolish.

[00:19:59.39] I think about the time a student explained to another student a topic in math better than I did. And that reinforced for me that idea that-- yeah, reinforce that kids had better ideas. Not necessarily better ideas, but they had perceptions about things that were valid and important as well. And to think that I was just going to tell them how to see and understand math was foolish. And I think those things transcend then to how I want to have kids talk and share their ideas as much as possible. So I think those are two. I'll tell you one last one.

[00:20:32.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, please, please.

[00:20:34.62] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: --my favorite. So if you've ever had the opportunity to change grades with your kids, it's fabulous. I've spiraled with my kids as I call it two years. But nonetheless, one year, I was teaching fourth grade, and we're teaching division at the time. And about half of my kids got it and about half didn't. Pretty good actually because division can be a really hard topic.

[00:20:54.15] Nonetheless, I got to fifth grade, the following year, with the same students teaching math and division again. And almost everybody got it. And the kids that were really getting it who had in the year before, they started to say, Mr. S, why didn't you teach it like this last year. And the funny part about the story is it's exactly the same way I taught it the year before and that it just took some kiddos more time to be able to see it, to be able to understand it, and to be able to process it. And sometimes, we have to keep that in mind as well.

[00:21:26.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, the development. I love that. I can hear those kids saying it, why didn't you teach it like this last year.

[00:21:32.31] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: And I was like, well, it's the exact same file folder, pal. I did the same--

[00:21:36.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did the same thing. But you were ready for it. Thank you.

[00:21:41.25] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, well, I didn't say that to them. But it dawned on me that kiddos learn at different rates in different ages. And you have to keep that in mind.

[00:21:49.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It gets back to Mary's experience, her own experience of learning with her mother helping her understand and then Mary observing, looking around the room and seeing how everybody's doing it differently. And I love, John, what you just said about acknowledging that a student could actually explain something to another student in a way that the student gets it and that we don't have to be the ones always saying it our way. So you're giving us the same message which is opening up our classrooms to letting other people speak, other modes of-- all those multiple intelligences. I love with Howard Gardner's work and just letting the students be the teachers and the coaches of each other because that's how we all learn.

[00:22:37.45] So one of the biggest topics, the hottest topic, if you ask a new teacher what are they struggling with, they always say, classroom management, classroom management, which means many different things to many different people. To me, it's the management of paper or time or it could be behavior or it could just be the organization of the routines and the rituals, that whole design that a teacher has to create that is unrelated but related to the content we're teaching. So we go to these college programs, we learn the content, we learn all the stuff, and then that's, to me, why classroom management is like the elephant in the room. Nobody talks about it, but that's what's required of every teacher to be successful.

[00:23:25.97] So do you have any magic tips, takeaways that our listeners could actually use and apply that are not theoretical like try this, this might work? Mary, what do you have in your tool kit?

[00:23:40.72] MARY MARGARET MARA: I actually have two things. There's one that I call the 1, 2, 3, 4 strategy-- stop, observe, listen, and learn. I think all too often, we as educators jump in at the end part of a situation and make preconceived notions where if we take the time to stop and observe what's happening and really listening to the interactions with students, and then we learn how to then approach that situation. That's a strategy I've used that really works well for me.

[00:24:14.53] Another one is COVID has definitely changed our classrooms. Coming back from COVID, many of my students teaching in a preschool classroom basically have grown up with COVID being a big part of their lives since they're three and four years old. So one thing that we found that was an effective strategy to try in the classroom is I was trying to get kids to be more kind to one another, to really understand what kindness meant.

[00:24:42.76] So one thing we approached, we started-- I think it's two years ago now-- we call it a kindness award. So every week, we watch and we observe and we make note of a child that's gone out of their way to be kind and respectful to the adults and the other students in the classroom. And in the beginning, some of them get it right away. Some of them, it takes them the whole year.

[00:25:07.75] But it really becomes as kids start getting it and what happens when they get the kindness award, they get a certificate, they get a prize for it, and they get to stand up in front of the group and be recognized. They start really cheering each other on as they start, oh, that's great, you got Xavier, we're so excited for you, that's wonderful. And they really start internalizing what does kindness actually look like. So I found that strategy has worked really well in my room.

[00:25:37.36] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for sharing that one. Do you have one kindness that comes to mind specifically, a student or a situation somebody got the award for? What was their kindness? I'm just curious.

[00:25:49.78] MARY MARGARET MARA: Going out of their way. I had one little guy who was basically nonverbal. But if you put in front of him I need help, it was a little thing that we left velcroed. And one of little girls in my classroom, she would sit next to him and she would just point to the word so he could say it and support him through the process. And that wasn't something we asked her to do. It was something she just naturally started doing.

[00:26:14.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So then the students get creative and they're not just mimicking what you say the rules are to get praise from the teacher. You're creating this community where the students are watching each other and observing unique ways to be kind. But the kindness is actually relating to their success in the classroom.

[00:26:38.97] MARY MARGARET MARA: Exactly. And there were no strict rules around it. We would give examples of need be, but I didn't say this is a criteria for me looking forward. So leaving it more open-ended allowed for them to come up with ideas that I hadn't thought of.

[00:26:55.14] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And look at these little people! Oh, my God. They're great, they're models for us. John, what practical management or in that realm could be utilized by some of our listeners today?

[00:27:09.73] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about that. And I want to speak to the same idea in a similar way. Many of us are trained the first day of school, write the rules, let the kids write them together, come up with them together, you put the rules on the chart paper, and everybody signs it like it's a declaration of independence.

[00:27:24.04] And I have found that that is the most bogus thing I could ever do in my classroom. And I want to be clear what I mean by that is there are rules in the classroom that are non-negotiables. We have to signal to go to the bathroom, we have to raise our hand to speak. I mean, there are certain things as an authority figure I have to set in place. The speed limit is set in place. I didn't agree to it, but that's what it is.

[00:27:44.89] But what Mary speaks to and what we're talking about here I think is norms and that's something different. So these are the rules in the classroom for order and safety. But norms are something different. And I would encourage taking time with students to do, I've had success doing this with what do we do when we're stuck, what are good behaviors when we're stuck, what are things we shouldn't be doing right. Or how do we talk to each other, what should we see, what shouldn't we see, and how do you manage your frustrations, what are some things that-- is it good to get up and walk around the room when you're frustrated, is it OK to break something. You get the idea.

[00:28:22.60] And maybe more about taking risks because kids think that taking risks means be first and fast. And that's not what that means. I say all this to you because kids at all ages have ideas about what these things are. And this is where we have a chance for them to explain in their own language what it means to take a risk and what it doesn't. And I have found that when they say and establish what norms are for interactions, and then my anchor charts reflect their ideas, they can live up to that.

[00:28:51.53] And then during the course of the year, as they evolve as students, we can start to adjust maybe some of those norms for the classroom. So that's my tip. That is differentiating between roles and norms and having kids have a saying how interactions go down.

[00:29:07.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And what you're both really saying here that I'm hearing is you're allowing or creating space for the students to participate from their own unique personalities, how they understand kindness or that particular norm of helping another in the room or just being in a group where everybody gets to talk and giving the quiet kid a chance to even speak. I remember being in an adult group. And I had never experienced this norm before.

[00:29:41.18] We were in a group in a college graduate class. And the facilitator came in and she just said, OK, here's one of the norm-- the norm of the group is everyone speaks once before anyone speaks twice. And I never heard anybody say that.

[00:29:58.80] And it was so interesting because in many groups that I've been in, there's a dominant person, and we all sit there, whether it's a faculty meeting or a group of students or whatever, and one person has the potential to dominate and some people never speak. Some people are doing their grocery list, not engaged at all because it's like a group interaction and it's OK. And when she said that, it changed the whole way in which I looked at group interactions with students and adults. And then what happened is if I had a group of five students, everyone speaks once before anyone speaks twice, but you could pass.

[00:30:40.75] Well, then the kid started taking care of each other and they would say, Joan, did you want to say something. They started watching to see if everyone had spoken once. And it was such an interesting way. And I have used it ever since with mentoring groups. And it just creates this culture of we're looking out for each other. And I like the way that both of your ideas relate to that. So thank you.

[00:31:11.69] So let's get to the elephant in the room is teaching really is hard. It's always been hard. We all know it. We've been in this for a while, the three of us.

[00:31:25.57] And we're still doing it. We're still supporting teachers in our own ways from the classroom, from out of the classroom. So how do we sustain ourselves? What do we do to not be that Pollyanna teacher that's just like, oh, it's fine, I'll just get through it, but to recognize the suffering in some ways and the hardships? What do you each do to come in positive or reset yourselves and sustain your energy and desire to contribute to teachers? What do you do, Mary?

[00:32:08.54] MARY MARGARET MARA: There's a couple of things that I do. I think many of my friends happen to be teachers. I think it's really important to talk to people.

[00:32:16.70] When you keep it all inside, that can be a trigger to just say I can't do this and just leave whereas if you kind of have people where you can bounce ideas off of, I think that can be really beneficial. It took me a long time to learn to do things for myself like going for a walk. I like to listen to mindfulness podcasts when I do it because it kind of just helps me reset for the day. Taking care of myself-- one thing I'm going to do this fall, which is totally out of my wheelhouse, but I'm going to give it a try as my best friend who's a teacher too, the two of us are going to take guitar lessons on--

[00:32:53.06] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.

[00:32:54.89] MARY MARGARET MARA: So it'll be interesting that I'm trying to do more things for me because it's that whole sense they have like the fill the bucket that we talk about the story. When you fill your own bucket, you have then to give to other people. And it took me a long time to realize how important it is to have the self-care piece.

[00:33:13.32] If we don't take care of ourselves, then we're not going to successfully take care of our classrooms. You start a classroom community when you show that you consider yourself important too. When you demonstrate and model that to your students, then they can see that they then are important.

[00:33:30.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love the way that you're saying that. And your examples are things that you-- you laughed about the guitar. I have a bass guitar. I play bass guitar. But I probably need some lessons. But I got the guitar just to practice and do something different.

[00:33:48.39] When we're in teaching and we've been teaching for a while, some of us think it's like another workshop or another learn this. And I am a teacher geek. I read tons of different books. But I like that you're sharing some ideas that don't relate to that, it doesn't have to relate to that. And I hope one of your podcasts will be listening to one of these podcast episodes on one of your walks. So you're inspiring me. I might have to do some guitar lessons now. All right, John, what do you have for us? How do you stay positive, mister?

[00:34:25.20] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: One of the instructions when you get on a plane is to make sure your oxygen mask is on first before you take care of somebody else. And I think that that's an important piece. You can't be the best teacher you want to be until you are in a good place yourself.

[00:34:37.98] For me, non-negotiables always have been carving out time for exercise and to make sure I have enough sleep. And it's hard to do when you're like, oh, my gosh, I got so much to do. At some point in my career, I just found the perspective of like it's still going to be there tomorrow regardless and just trying to manage things as best you can in those ways. I think Mary says a good point is social creatures. Teachers really need that interaction, that discussion, be it a happy hour, be it at home with someone significant in your life, going for walks and having those conversations. I mean, I think all those things-- taking up hobbies or rekindling a hobby is always a good thing, but just doing things that take care of yourself first. And it seems like it's easier said than done, and it can be. But if you don't do it, it's really hard to take care of others.

[00:35:33.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I mean, when we have these interests, it's kind of a fun thing to talk about with the kids too.

[00:35:40.16] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: That's actually a really good point.

[00:35:41.15] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: They're going to be interested in those guitar lessons.

[00:35:44.27] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Because they think they think we live at school. That's why they love the pictures on our desks. They're like, you have a dog. Yeah, I have a dog. But that's important because now they can make connections with us as opposed to I sleep at my desk. And this job is all about connections, all about connections.

[00:36:03.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It is. And I think those are the connections where we really get in to talking with our students at a different level. And they love it and they relate to it. And teachers that we mentor, we need to make time for that with them as well as we mentor beginning teachers. You're both working in that realm, and I am as well, that we don't just jump into the mentoring conversation and talking about their kids in the classroom and what isn't working, that we actually just ask them, well, what are your hobbies and what-- I think integrating the self care and the wellness and the well being into these mentoring conversations is crucial.

[00:36:44.26] It's where I am with all of my mentoring now. That has to be a major part. And that's why I wrote the book Teaching With Light. We have to have the light in us to model and to share and to be willing to talk about it. Or else, we're just like a shell. It's just a conversation that we're just checking off the box that we had to conversation.

[00:37:08.36] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: And want to add something there too for our new teachers. And that is like teaching is hard. Everybody recognizes that. And it's always been hard. It's always been hard for-- And Mary, I imagine we're on the same boat.

[00:37:20.90] My first year of teaching, I stayed at school later than I ever did my second year and my third year and my fourth year. You start to find efficiencies. It's hard to find those efficiencies even talking to somebody until you've done it a couple times. I think that's the part that can be really challenging is the perseverance when it feels like it's so overwhelming sometimes.

[00:37:40.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, thank you for that. And I think that's a great reminder to our listeners, beginners and experienced. Staying later might not be the answer to our questions and to making that lesson any better the next day because getting the sleep will make a bigger difference.

[00:38:05.97] So I want to pivot a bit to your books, John, and have you give us an overview. I know you've written like 15 books. Why did you write these books, what's the theme, what's the message to our listeners, which book should they take a look at? Give us a little promotion here.

[00:38:28.68] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: OK. Well, I'll keep a brief promotion. But there's so much more to math than what we've been told and that for many teachers, most teachers, we've had one math class before we ever became a math teacher. And we may not have had a great math experience ourselves.

[00:38:41.85] And so my work has been or my passion has been to help teachers tap into the math person they are and to help their students find a love for math that they have, to help them think and reason. That's really what my work has always been about is how do we get kids engaged talking, thinking, and so on. So my newest book is about just that, routines about problem solving, how do we help kids make sense of problems and avoid silly stuff like circling words and highlighting numbers, which really isn't problem solving, but instead, helping them make sense and helping them develop skills that will transcend or transfer throughout their lives.

[00:39:20.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So more critical thinking skill than just memorizing formulas and the way that I was taught math.

[00:39:30.64] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Which wasn't a good way to learn math, by the way.

[00:39:32.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: No, I know. Math was the scariest subject. And I think of myself as a problem solver, but I didn't learn it in math. I don't know where I learned it then. So you're an advocate for problem solving and critical thinking through math. I love that.

[00:39:55.21] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Through everything, but I focus on math. Yeah, I'll talk more about it in a minute.

[00:39:58.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right, thank you. Thank you. Mary, you are featured as one of our guests in the new book. Talk about what it felt like to be published and have your story be public as part of this book, When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known.

[00:40:18.39] MARY MARGARET MARA: You know what, I love the concept of the book and all the stories. And thought it was really cool to have my story out there and to read all of the other stories because so many stories, you can read and you can relate to. You're like, oh, I've kind had a similar experience to that. And I think it kind of just provides, especially like new teachers, but I suppose any teacher across the number of years, that sense of, oh, I never thought about that before, oh, I've experienced something like that, or a quick little synopsis of something that I can go and try in my classroom.

[00:40:53.40] And like you've said before, teachers want things that are practical. We want practical ideas to then take back to our classrooms. So when you can read something that's short and sweet and gives you ideas that you can then take back and try in your classroom or think about how you approach in your classroom, I think that's very valuable.

[00:41:13.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you for being part of it. And along with the 36-- you're one of the 36 teachers for weekly wisdom for the school year. But I also want to give a shout out to the website that Corwin put together that goes with the book for our listeners who have it to just check it out because there is more wisdom there and more background and just check it out. John, you want to add anything else about your latest book or--

[00:41:40.24] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Well, yeah.

[00:41:40.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --what's next or--

[00:41:41.98] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Just briefly, yeah. What's next--

[00:41:44.47] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, just kidding.

[00:41:46.10] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Actually I think that that note about being practical, and that's what I'm most proud of in my work. And that is how do I make something practical that teachers can use every day. And that's really the highlight of not just the recent work, but the new work coming out for math interventions and how do we do things practically.

[00:42:04.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And are you using that with the teachers in your district? What components of your work or your book do you find that teachers resonate with the most, that they embrace?

[00:42:17.53] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Wow, that's a great question. I mean, yes, we use much of my work as the core for our instruction or instructional philosophies. The answer is I think it varies from teacher to teacher. And I think that's another thing to keep in mind too is that not all of us do this job the same way. I keep saying job. It's more than a job. But what I'm proud about is to give practical diverse ideas to teachers so that you can meet your kiddos needs based on your strengths as a teacher, not based on my strengths as a writer or a creator.

[00:42:48.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So we're kind of back to that same theme of what Mary introduced about the learning styles and the embracing and seeing how people learn differently with her experience as a student and your experience as a director who's introducing a variety of strategies. I love that we are not one size fits all teachers and that there's one PD, professional development, that we all have to do it the same way. So I really appreciate that the big idea that the two of you that kind of emerged in this conversation of really creativity and variety and differentiation and opportunity and different ways of doing it that relate to who we are as human beings and teachers. And that's when we have both.

[00:43:42.41] So let's close out the podcast with my final favorite question from Richard Elmore. He wrote a book called, I Used to Think, and Now I Think. And I love the way he made public that his thinking around public policy had changed over time. And I like that we as teachers and teacher educators, we need to focus on that and that it's OK to change our ideas if we have better ones instead of sticking with the old stuff which isn't really working. So Mary, what did you use to think about teaching and education and what do you think now?

[00:44:21.88] MARY MARGARET MARA: I used to think that what made a successful educator was the person who had a really well-developed, well thought out lesson plan, materials were ready to go, and you were ready the moment you walked into your classroom. I now believe that the most important part of teaching is actually the positive relationships that you first build with your students. when you get to know who they are and how they interact with others, how they interact with the materials, that actually gives you the information you need as an educator to make that well-developed lesson plan possible. We need to understand that not every child approaches learning in the same way. And how do we make our lessons adaptable in the moment? We do that by learning who they are and what their needs are. And then we can make that lesson plan become successful.

[00:45:13.67] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Very clear. Lovely message. And John?

[00:45:19.36] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I just laughed because when you're saying that, that's exactly what-- myself being a skilled lesson planner was filling out the form the best way and getting your materials together. And that is so not what teaching is. It just took me 20 plus 30 years to figure that out.

[00:45:35.53] I would say I used to think there was have to must do right way of teaching, which is kind of along those lines. Almost a Ten Commandments of teaching math, if you will. And then if I didn't do it the way everybody else did, I was doing a bad job. And what I've learned is there's a greater goal to teaching math or just teaching in general.

[00:45:55.72] It's not about recall, it's not about facts, it's not about discrete ideas. It's about growing and nurturing, supporting people. That's what this business is-- that think, that question, that are curious, that wonder, that talk to each other, that take care of a community. Teaching is so much more than delivery of information.

[00:46:18.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you for that. So Mary, is there anything you want to say to John or anything you heard or any feedback for him as we close our episode today?

[00:46:29.51] MARY MARGARET MARA: I just think it's interesting because John, obviously, you work with teachers at a higher grade level and with students. But the message is very similar. We both approach it in similar respects to understanding that it's important to recognize what our students' needs are and that I loved when you talked about how sometimes it's giving that opportunity where one student can kind of teach the skill to another student. That happens in my classroom all the time. For whatever reason, one child can explain it far better than I can and that the other child just gets it.

[00:47:05.63] [LAUGHTER]

[00:47:06.48] The openness of recognizing that. And love too that your approach that you understand that it really starts with people and that there needs to be diversity in the way that you teach it. I think that's so important and it makes me think, wow, his math classes must be pretty cool.

[00:47:22.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, I love that.

[00:47:26.33] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: I'd like to think so.

[00:47:28.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: John, any message for Mary or just--

[00:47:31.01] JOHN SANGIOVANNI: Yeah, gosh, there's so many messages for Mary. And I'm going to come off of that idea that teaching is teaching and that pre-K teachers like yourself do it the best. Young primary teachers do it the best. And if we had more secondary folks who really spent some time in primary classrooms to see how those things go down and how masterful our pre-K folks are, as you reminded me of in your conversations and your insights, we could do such better work for our adolescent kids.

[00:48:01.19] But I also want to say something else on the math side. In pre-K and K, often we feel like, well, the math we teach is important. And I just want to say to you and really all of our listeners who are early childhood folks, you set the foundation for everything. There is no success later without you. And so this isn't about you, Mary, but our listeners and primary folks who sometimes feel like, I'm just teaching kindergarten. It's the most important thing to do. So I just wanted to say that to you.

[00:48:23.93] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, thank you John. That's a great way to end. And thank you both for being part of this. I'm going to turn this over to Tori who's going to summarize our conversation and leave our listeners with some highlights.

[00:48:36.85] TORI BACHMAN: Thank you. Yeah, I don't think I have much to add, actually. I took a lot of notes. And things that really came through to me, the two things I wrote down and kind of circled were know your students and learn from your students. And it sounds like that was a theme that I heard from each of you a few times that not only do the relationships matter and building relationships with kids.

[00:48:58.74] And Mary, your story was just so moving and relatable in the way that shifted how you thought about what you were doing every day in the classroom. But you also realize that it's not about you, it's about the kids. And that sounds like such a huge epiphany that I'm sure many teachers have and can relate to.

[00:49:22.47] But then also, John, just listening to how-- I really appreciate the strategies that you both gave. And John, the rules and norms idea I think really struck a chord with me because there is often some confusion around what's the difference between rules and norms. And keeping your place of authority and keeping the kids safe is important, but it's also really important to let them have some agency and the norms and the things that they want to see every day in their classroom. So I really appreciated-- those kind of tidbits in particular stood out to me that know your students and learn from your students and let yourself be part of that human experience with them is super important. So thanks for bringing that out for us today.

[00:50:14.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And thank you both and thank you to all our listeners. I hope you will tune in for our next episode. Thanks again. Bye, John, bye, Mary.

[00:50:24.86] ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

[00:50:55.28] ANNOUNCER: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.