Giving Students the Tools They Need for You to Step Back
Guest(s): Maria Walther and Sandra Brower
Date: 09/13/2023
Run time: 01:00:36
Season 1, Episode 5
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Episode Audio
Series 1 Teacher to Teacher Podcast
[00:00:00.00] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:00:03.10] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with
host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and
university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four
bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of
professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations
and share their wisdom.
[00:00:23.89] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about
pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal
actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The teacher to teacher
podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with
experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you keep you
inspired and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.
[00:00:49.06] TORI BACHMAN: Hello. Welcome to the Teacher to Teacher
podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a
Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for
teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use
in their classrooms.
[00:01:06.63] We believe we're all constantly learning and we're learning
together. To share their wisdom today, we have two fabulous teacher guests,
Sandy Brower and Maria Walther. I'll introduce them both to you now. Sandy
Brower is a certified positive education, I'm sorry, certified positive
educator and trainer through the Center for Positive Education and serves on
the executive committee for the International Positive Education Consortium.
[00:01:34.79] Sandy has coordinated youth leadership summits and champion of
character banquets to promote and support character education in her area
schools. Sandy facilitates flourishing and resiliency skills workshops for
adolescents, supporting students in becoming the best versions of themselves.
She is an educator who is featured in Carol's recent book titled, When I
Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi,
Sandy. Thank you for talking with us today.
[00:02:05.55] SANDRA BROWER: Hi, Tori. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here
and it's such a pleasure to be joining everybody and have the opportunity to
talk about teachers and how we can work together.
[00:02:18.53] TORI BACHMAN: Great, thank you. Also joining us is Maria
Walther. Maria is a teacher, author, literacy consultant, and picture book
enthusiast with over 34 years of experience teaching first grade. Currently she
partners with teachers in their classrooms and inspires her colleagues through
engaging professional learning experiences.
[00:02:40.49] The educators Maria works with say time and again that what
they appreciate most about her is her focus on joyful, realistic approaches
toward classroom instruction. Maria is the author of several professional
books, including two Corwin bestsellers, The Ramped-Up Read Aloud and Shake Up
Shared Reading. Hi, Maria. Thank you for being here.
[00:03:02.90] MARIA WALTHER: Thanks, Tori. So excited to be here. And so
nice to meet you, Sandy. I can't wait to learn more about your work.
[00:03:09.45] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, me too.
[00:03:10.86] TORI BACHMAN: So we've all really been looking forward to this
conversation. Sandy and Maria just met for the first time today, so we're
really looking forward to the connections that they make. And I am going to
turn this over to Carol. Thank you both.
[00:03:23.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Tori. And thank you all
our listeners who have tuned in to hear the Teacher to Teacher podcast. So what
I love about this podcast is that we dedicate intentional conversations to
teachers who are currently in the classroom or who have been in the classroom
and are still contributing their wisdom to the profession. So I'm just excited.
[00:03:51.34] To get us started, let's just begin with a short summary of
your journey into teaching, why you chose to become teachers, and how you ended
up where you are now. So Sandy, why did you decide to teach? And what did you
teach? And just give me a little background.
[00:04:14.98] SANDRA BROWER: Oh my goodness, yeah. Oh, well, honestly, I
came into teaching a little late in life. I have four children and was a stay
at home mom. And I decided I needed to bring in some extra money to help
supplement our family income. So I took a job at the school where my children
were attending and I was a teacher aide actually for several years.
[00:04:43.65] And in that time I came to see and observe that a lot of the
kids were struggling with lack of confidence, some anxiety issues, relationship
issues, just different issues that they didn't seem to be able to find answers
for. So I decided to then go back to school.
[00:05:08.55] I went back, I got my bachelor's degree in psychology and a
master's degree in health education. So that's where I wanted to focus on whole
health of the child.
[00:05:20.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that it came right from your
own life and your own family. And you taught health, or are you teaching health
now, or are--
[00:05:31.22] SANDRA BROWER: No, I'm not teaching it now. I have taught
health, a couple of years I've taught health and then I also did a little bit
of substitute teaching, long-term substitute positions.
[00:05:44.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And now you're a--
[00:05:45.61] SANDRA BROWER: I got a little sidetracked.
[00:05:47.26] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes, as many people who are
listening. And then you now have embraced this positive education focus with
character and values. Just say a bit about that transition from that idea to
now. And I know you're going to share a story, but how did you physically-- did
you go to school? Did you take a program? What happened there? Connect the
dots.
[00:06:16.31] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah. Well, while I was in school I ran across
this positive psychology. It's a new field in psychology and it's all about the
being sciences. And I really got hooked on it and I wanted to integrate a lot
of it into my health curriculum.
[00:06:34.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK, that makes sense.
[00:06:35.68] SANDRA BROWER: That's the direction I went, yeah. And then
while I was working on my master's degree I got involved with the academy for
character education and started integrating all of that together.
[00:06:46.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And we'll hear more about that, I'll
ask you later, we will. So Maria, you always wanted to be a teacher or how did
you end up in the classroom teaching first grade--
[00:06:56.87] MARIA WALTHER: First, go ahead.
[00:06:57.92] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: First grade for 34 years, wow.
[00:07:01.49] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah, so I wanted to be a first grade teacher
since first grade. And so this is my 38th year.
[00:07:08.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it.
[00:07:09.11] MARIA WALTHER: I know. Since first grade always that was the
only thing I put on my resume, first grade teacher, and I got very lucky. I did
my student teaching with a woman who had taught first grade for 25 years. And
we did all of our planning and teaching together during my student teaching
experience and then I got the job in the classroom next to hers.
[00:07:29.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God, I have goosebumps. That's
crazy.
[00:07:32.87] MARIA WALTHER: Oh, wait, you're going to have more goosebumps.
[00:07:34.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, no.
[00:07:36.74] MARIA WALTHER: The two rooms had no wall between them.
[00:07:40.16] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Open classroom.
[00:07:41.87] MARIA WALTHER: So I taught next to a woman who had taught
first grade for 25 years and was able to listen to everything that she said.
And we did all our plans together and we collaborated. And so what I learned
from that experience was the importance of collaboration and having that
thought partner, and it just was an amazing experience.
[00:08:04.38] So I've carried that through my entire career. I've always had
a team that I've planned with, we called ourselves the Tuesday night team. We
planned together for 25 years in first grade. And now that I'm no longer in the
classroom I still collaborate with one of those teammates. She's now teaching
kindergarten, and we still talk, and I go to her classroom every week. So we've
been collaborating now for 30 years.
[00:08:27.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. So you're a legacy
teacher. So you just recently retired. So I am creating this new concept that
retired teachers, we're not calling them that anymore, it's legacy teachers.
And that we all need to continue to network because I'm a retired teacher, I
retired from the classroom and then went to higher ed, and we all have our own
paths. But that's the legacy work that you're talking about, that
collaboration, and that listening to each other and the co-planning, and the
sharing of the wisdom, you got to experience that.
[00:09:04.01] And I know there are some listeners going, oh, I wish I had
that because that's the truest form of mentoring and modeling with the best
experience and not just always starting over every year with new ideas, let's
just take the best of everything and keep sharing it. So thank you for that. So
you really stayed right into the classroom, but you started writing. Can you
just say when did the writing of your books overlay with the full time
teaching?
[00:09:39.29] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I earned my doctorate and wrote a
dissertation. And then after the dissertation the people that were on my
committee invited me to co-write a textbook, a college reading textbook,
something I would not advise. It was a six-year process, very long process. But
in it I met, again, some wonderful writing partners and so we started to write
professional books.
[00:10:05.90] So I moved from writing the dissertation in the textbook to
writing professional books. And so that Was-- I got my doctorate in 1998. So I
have told-- Tori knows this, I have had a writing deadline since 1998.
[00:10:24.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Oh, my God, well, I got my
doctorate in 1996. And it's interesting you do remember the exact year that you
finish it. And I remember my advisor saying, just get it done. I want it to be
good, I want to have a good message. And he's like, the best dissertation is a
done dissertation, it's just like get it done. And that was the best advice
because it motivated me to not get sidetracked and all this writing that was
wordsmithing, and editing, and all of that.
[00:11:02.35] So congratulations for staying in the professional world after
finishing the doctorate and keeping your message out there. So two different
journeys, but I think you have some common interests around sharing wisdom for
the benefit of students, which is really why we're here at this podcast.
[00:11:25.12] So let's transition into thinking back to your time in the
classroom, what changed you? I always like to know those pivotal goosebump
moments when something significant happens that we never forget like I just
didn't forget that dissertation conversation. When you don't forget something,
and it doesn't have to be challenging, it could be like a success thing, it's
just something that we build our perspective and stance as teachers out of this
learning that happened. So Sandy, something like that happened to you? Share
your story.
[00:12:10.61] SANDRA BROWER: Oh, yes, definitely, definitely. I remember
distinctly I had one young lady, she was ninth grade at the time. Every day
that she came into my classroom she complained nonstop about her math teacher,
how strict she was, the stupid things she said, it was nonstop.
[00:12:34.05] And the interesting thing about this young lady is she tended
to be one of those students who was always late to class, in the principal's
office a little more often than you'd like them to be, you know the type. But
anyways, she would come in and she would constantly complain about her teacher.
[00:12:54.51] And so one day she came in and I and she started and said,
hey. I said let's take a breath for a second. And do me a favor, I'm going to
challenge you to go and talk to that teacher and find three things about that
teacher that you like, go talk to her and find three things about that teacher
that you could like about her.
[00:13:16.62] So about a week or so later she come into the classroom and
she was all smiles and just talking about this teacher, and what these things
that she did, and the interest that she had. And it just totally changed her
perspective on the teacher and I think it did help her ability to then enjoy
the classroom and the school a little bit more, being in school a little bit
more.
[00:13:46.70] So it was just one of those instances that it just occurred to
me that she just needed a different perspective, she just needed another way to
look at something or somebody to change her whole thinking, her whole line of
thinking.
[00:14:04.02] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you gave her the tool for her to
actually contribute to her own learning in a different way?
[00:14:13.81] SANDRA BROWER: In a different way.
[00:14:14.59] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Where did you come up with that? Had
you been doing that in your own life? Are you one of those see the good and
everything?
[00:14:21.34] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, I do. I always, yeah. When I meet people
I like to look for the good in other people and other in the situations too
because you can be in a not so happy situation, but you still have to look for
the good in it or you get stuck in that mindset of negativity.
[00:14:42.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that made a difference to that
student. So you actually saw the result of your tool in action with a student
who shifted. And then how did that affect your decision to keep teaching, or
health, or you were in the classroom then? How did her reaction change to what
you chose to do next in your career?
[00:15:07.96] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, to begin with, it made me see the
students a little bit differently because a lot of these kids you know they
come off really tough, and hard to connect with, and mean, and so on, and so
forth. And it just occurred to me that their behavior, it's communication,
they're reacting to their situation and not knowing how to-- not having those
skills to be able to handle life a little bit better.
[00:15:36.17] So I just became a lot more determined that I wanted to bring
these types of skills into the classroom to help these kids. And then it just
didn't end there, it went into I want to bring it into the schools, we need it in
our schools.
[00:15:52.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And you spend a lot of time on that,
in which I'm going to tease that out a little bit later, but let's hear Maria's
defining significant learning experience and let's see what your life has
brought you.
[00:16:10.04] MARIA WALTHER: Well, and I just want to talk about Sandy's for
just a minute.
[00:16:13.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK, go ahead.
[00:16:14.36] MARIA WALTHER: What you did, Sandy, was you helped that child
build a relationship. And I think that's what we, and I've heard you say this
already, that's what's missing in schools, is that time to build relationships.
And that's why love picture books and that read aloud experience because that
helps to build a relationship, and a culture, and a classroom, but it also
gives students tools like gave of ways to talk to other children and ways to
interact.
[00:16:43.40] So my defining moment is about read aloud and it really is
about a time when-- so I've always read aloud, I always read aloud a lot in my
classroom. I actually kept a tally about how many times we read aloud. And this
particular year I had a boy who was a student with autism and he had a lot of
difficulty in the classroom.
[00:17:11.37] I often always said that I tended to get those students
because I was able to build relationships and figure out what they needed
because I was flexible and just thought outside the box sometimes. But so
during read aloud because I kept a tally it was very difficult for him engaging
in the read aloud, asking questions, it was very, very challenging. But I kept
at it, and I kept telling, and I kept at it, and I kept telling.
[00:17:40.80] And it took about 300 read aloud experiences before this child
was able to start to interact with his peers, interact with the story, but he
did it. And from the 300th to the 600th that year, he was in it. Once he
figured out that this was a place that he was comfortable, and he felt safe,
and you know his peers were going to talk to him, it was just an amazing
experience for him and for the rest of the children because then they started
to see him as a contributor to that classroom environment.
[00:18:16.66] So that was the defining moment and when I really realized
that the power of read aloud not only to help students as readers and writers,
but to help them socially and emotionally.
[00:18:27.54] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So when you say read aloud, just for
our teachers that are listening that are high school teacher because we have a
k-12 and college audience listening what does that-- your students are sitting,
the first grade students, you're reading a story aloud and they're sitting and
listening to you either at their desk or on a mat or something cozy? And what
is it that you wanted this one student to do? You had read 300 different times
and that student just didn't engage or just didn't talk? Give me some more
descriptors.
[00:19:06.06] MARIA WALTHER: OK so during a read aloud experience typically
I prefer to have the students close by, so on the carpet or nearby. And the big
part of interactive read aloud is interacting with your peers. So when I'm
posing a question, it really isn't answering my question, it's turning and
talking with your neighbor and having that conversation and in that way you're
building relationships.
[00:19:30.01] So for this child that part, that relationship building that
turning and talking was very difficult. So he could listen to the read aloud,
but he just wasn't interacting either with--
[00:19:41.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So he couldn't turn to a partner and say,
I liked the part that she said just now or any conversation?
[00:19:50.13] MARIA WALTHER: Yes, that was very, very challenging. And so it
was just that modeling so I would pair him with different students.
[00:19:59.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.
[00:20:00.45] MARIA WALTHER: And in finding the student that would be able
to engage in that conversation, so there's a strategy, I would scaffold his
conversation. So when it was time to turn and talk, I might come down on the
floor and say, well, you know you might want to start with, OK, I'm wondering
about this part of the book. What are you wondering? So providing language,
putting that language into his vocabulary. So those are some of the strategies.
[00:20:27.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So he was teaching you to teach? So
this is the college preparation program for teachers is to put the kids in
front of us and then-- but you had to be aware enough to notice and to focus on
him. So that's really a very insightful moment when you realized that you were
going to make him your study.
[00:20:57.09] MARIA WALTHER: And I always say and I'm sure Sandy would agree
that you learn the most from the students. And the students who are the
toughest students, like this child, the young adult that you were talking
about, are the students who you learn the absolute most from about being an
educator. They teach you the skills that you-- I mean, you have to develop
skills to meet their needs.
[00:21:18.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But you as a teacher had to be in the
moment that you could see the learning, so that's why these two stories and
they relate, which is always interesting to me. They relate because why you had
the pivotal moment, the significant moment is you allowed yourself to see
what's missing was.
[00:21:42.36] So Sandy allowed herself to see this student is just
complaining, but then it was like, what can I do? Every teacher might not do
that. They'd be like just go away you're wrecking my day. And the same for you
having the quiet student, a beginning teacher might not even have the skill set
to know what to do, but it's an inquiry. So both of you were giving students
the tools, you both were doing the tools so you could-- yes, go ahead, go
ahead.
[00:22:20.04] MARIA WALTHER: Your key word there though is inquiry.
[00:22:22.32] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:22:23.07] MARIA WALTHER: Because as educators that's a big part of what
we do, we're uncovering-- I think, I can't remember who said it. Behavior often
is covering up something else. You said that, Sandy.
[00:22:38.03] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah, behavior is communication.
[00:22:40.05] MARIA WALTHER: Yes, so as educators, we're trying to peel back
those layers to figure out what it is that they're trying to communicate and
that does take time certainly, but time well spent.
[00:22:53.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: The patience. So what was the
moment-- we call these the light bulb moments in teaching when we look and
we're like he raised his hand or something, they are the big little things, I
call them, because they're big, but it's like this little raiser, a small
behavior. What was the indication that you saw that that student revealed or
allowed himself to be comfortable talking to somebody else? Was there a
particular--
[00:23:30.28] [INTERPOSING VOICES]
[00:23:31.88] Yeah, go ahead.
[00:23:32.99] MARIA WALTHER: What I began to see was he was able to have
book-based conversations. So he was able to take what was happening in that
book and then talk about that with his partner without the scaffolding. So it
was when I was able to sit back.
[00:23:51.07] And like Sandy's story, you're hoping that this young adult
does that with other people that they're having trouble with. So I think that
that's what we're doing is we're providing those tools. As you said, Carol,
we're providing tools, but then it's when they apply the tools without.
[00:24:09.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, on their own. So that's
ultimately what we do as teachers, whatever we're teaching. I mean, it was
ninth grade, first grade, I'm teaching preservice student teachers, it doesn't
matter, but it's that awareness within us that these conversations, hopefully,
as people are listening, will stop a moment and say, OK, so what's going on
around me that I can influence because we just get going like machines and it's
correct to the papers, and do this, and go to the next meeting, and the
technology has added a lot to it.
[00:24:48.80] So I appreciate your two pivotal stories, very big significant
moments in teachers' lives that helped you in your career of writing, so you
write about this now. How does this go into your writing, Maria? How does that
story? How is it influenced the way in which you have moved forward?
[00:25:15.07] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I think it's also like book selection and
so providing students with literature where they can see themselves in that
book. So I mean, when I started teaching there weren't books with
neurodivergent children in them, there just weren't. Maybe there were a few,
but I didn't have them in my classroom.
[00:25:35.77] So I think that's another way to give children tools and strategies,
is to show a book where a child who is like them is navigating the world and
figuring things out. I think that's how I put it into my writing, it's more the
books I'm selecting and helping teachers to find those books so that they can
bring those books into the classroom for the children that they have.
[00:26:01.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's great. And Sandy, what did you
think about Maria's story or how it relates to the work you're doing in
positive education and--
[00:26:13.60] SANDRA BROWER: I loved your story for, excuse me, for a couple
of reasons. One, I have a daughter who is Asperger's, she has Asperger's. So
she struggled in school and it was that whole social piece that was very
difficult for her.
[00:26:28.96] So as far as that goes and the whole idea of not just those
children, but any child can be a puzzle that we need to figure out and that's
part of the challenge. And I think using books is an excellent way to connect
with them definitely is building social relationships or talking about any if
you want to call it SEL or any well-being piece, it's a beautiful tool to use
because there's so many different books and stories out there that you can
engage the kids with. Whatever it is--
[00:27:12.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes.
[00:27:14.86] SANDRA BROWER: So I think it's beautiful. Thank you.
[00:27:16.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I want to just close this up with
just going back to your student, Sandy, that hated the teacher and it was the
math teacher. And I think just to make this explicit when students and teachers
make these kinds of judgments, it also brings down the content that the teacher
is teaching.
[00:27:38.25] So it gets attached to the way students would talk about,
well, I hate my history teacher. They define the content and the teacher or did
that student hate you, Maria, because he didn't want to engage? There was
something and some teachers might have said he was stubborn.
[00:28:01.70] We don't know how these judgments get layered on the content
that's being taught that closes kids down from that whole content of math. If
you had not intervened it would be so interesting to know how successful that
student was in the content, how that shifted the content or the reading. Did he
become a lifelong reader because of these emotional attachments that we add to
these situations?
[00:28:37.33] SANDRA BROWER: And that's the thing that's interesting is you
sometimes you find out years later the impact that you had on a child and you
don't realize it. It would have been wonderful to find out, I wish I had
actually reached out to find out how she was doing with her math.
[00:28:53.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, well I'm just throwing it out
there because we do-- as we're all thinking of the favorite teachers that we
had is, how is that content? Usually if it was the hated teacher it wasn't the
favorite content.
[00:29:08.68] SANDRA BROWER: Either.
[00:29:11.08] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So I just want to put that out there
to see how we connect those dots as teachers and learners ourselves in our own
college classrooms and places that we go. But all right, let's go to classroom
management. I just want to talk about classroom management and how we have this
big umbrella term.
[00:29:34.60] If we talk to beginning teachers or if we talk to any teacher
really and we say, what's your biggest challenge? They always say classroom
management, classroom management. But I see classroom management in very
specific ways. It could be organization of paper. It could be managing
behavior, and rules, and rituals, and responses to that.
[00:29:58.65] So there's a lot of managing in classroom management, and
there is a lot of advice out there, and there are practical things. And I think
sometimes we hold on to our wisdoms that we used to have some teachers say, oh,
you'll figure it out, you'll learn. And I think we should just share everything
up front with the beginners.
[00:30:18.14] So do you each have a tried and true or a couple of things the
listeners could actually do in their classrooms? And maybe it's K-12 too, so it
doesn't have to be just for first graders. Maria, what comes to your mind?
[00:30:35.56] MARIA WALTHER: Well, this is actually not my idea, so someone
shared their wisdom with me and that person was Debbie Miller, she's written
many books about teaching. And her wisdom was to use songs to transition
students from one activity to the next.
[00:30:51.10] And so my daughter was, I think, in high school and this is in
the old days remember. So I had her make a playlist, burned it onto a CD,
remember those?
[00:31:02.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:31:04.68] MARIA WALTHER: And so I had specific songs for different parts
of the day. We used a lot of show tunes and just snippets of songs. So when it
was time for lunch we'd play Oliver, Food, Glorious Food. When it was time
for-- I can't think of any of the other ones. And we even put funny ones in
there. We didn't use them, but taking care of business when it was time for a
bathroom.
[00:31:27.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it, I love it. I can hear it,
but we're going to have dad music in this podcast.
[00:31:35.72] MARIA WALTHER: And so had a lot of different snippets. So it
wasn't just the same song for the same part of the day, there were lots of different
songs. But here is the benefit of using song, whether you use it for
transitions, whether you use quiet music when students are working, whether you
have music playing when they come into the classroom, as we know music sets a
tone for the day and for transitions, especially when you're in any type of
classroom when you're transitioning from one activity to the next, you as the
teacher usually has to gather supplies or go get whatever you need for the next
lesson.
[00:32:12.99] So by playing a song, you have time to go gather your things
that you need and then the students have that signal. And the other part about
it is I always say, you know the Charlie Brown teacher voice, wah, wah, wah,
wah, wah.
[00:32:28.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.
[00:32:29.65] MARIA WALTHER: Well, when we're talking all day long that's
what it ends up sounding like. All they hear is wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. So
that eliminates some talking because when I'm working with new teachers, I
often see a lot of talking and I think sometimes if we can eliminate some of
that talking and just do that through song or actions, I know people use chimes
and different other musical ways of calling students together, so that's my
tip.
[00:33:00.90] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it, I love it. I can't believe
that I never did that one. I can remember shutting the lights off as a
beginning teacher and it was in the dark, but it was in the dark or a Simon
says, follow me, and put the kids in front of the class, and they'd touch your
head, touch your toe, and it would keep them quiet.
[00:33:22.71] But I love the music and I love the creativity around that the
kids could probably submit songs for the playlist, which would be awesome to
hear their song and just have it for-- transitions are probably the toughest
thing for any teachers really.
[00:33:45.23] I wonder if any schools would do it in the hallways that would
be cool instead of just line up against the lockers and be quiet. But having
music go through the schools would be interesting. Did all the songs have words
or could they just have music?
[00:34:03.77] MARIA WALTHER: For the transitions, yes, when I played music
when kids were working and then it was quiet relaxing, but all the transition
songs. And it was fun because they didn't know the musicals.
[00:34:15.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that's true.
[00:34:16.52] MARIA WALTHER: And so was also introducing them to musical
theater because they would sing it and would say, oh, well, that's from a play,
that play is called Oliver.
[00:34:24.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And these are first graders. Are they
dancing? Are they dancing too?
[00:34:28.21] MARIA WALTHER: Yes. And then I also used song picture books so
every day we would end the day with a picture book that was a song. And my
funny story about that, and it is still like Kathy, my friend that I still
collaborate with uses it, but there's a song picture book of John Denver's,
Take Me Home Country Road. And there is nothing more special than ending your
day with all the children going take me home.
[00:34:54.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Take me home.
[00:34:55.83] MARIA WALTHER: And they love it.
[00:34:57.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it.
[00:34:58.44] MARIA WALTHER: Love it.
[00:34:58.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. The teachers are saying the same
thing, that's probably what could be put on the intercom.
[00:35:05.51] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah, exactly.
[00:35:06.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: At the end of the day, the principal
can put that one up. I love it. You've got on to something, that's great, and practical,
and fun, and adds another Howard Gardner multiple intelligence. And yay, love
it. So what else can we do for managing or transitioning? Do you have any other
practical way?
[00:35:32.49] MARIA WALTHER: Yeah. Well, for me, I was going to say you know
consistency routine is definitely very important and being authentic with the
kids. They know when you're not, so just be real with them. But I know for me a
lot of times before I, one, making sure I'm ready when they come in.
[00:35:54.78] But when they do come in, I greet them, hey, how are you
doing? Or when I'm taking attendance say, hey, how are you doing? How's your
day going? And then sometimes that'll actually set off a conversation, a child
or a teen will respond and say, well, my day's not going all that great. Well,
why is that? And we just have like a little whole group conversation for about
five minutes before we get going on class. And think the kids really appreciate
that just--
[00:36:24.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, that connection, yes.
[00:36:29.22] MARIA WALTHER: --just to chit chat and connect with each
other. I did have one year. I had before my class the kids were in gym, they
were seventh graders. And they were in gym class. And they would come in and
they were just so wound up, it took quite a while to get them to settle in.
[00:36:48.95] So I started teaching them breathing techniques. It's like OK,
bell goes off. Let's sit, and breathe together, and we would. And I think the
kids got to the point where they really appreciated that time just to breathe,
and calm their systems, and then redirect into whatever it is that we were
going to be doing that day. And we made it a habit and I think they really
appreciated just that time to breathe.
[00:37:19.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, let's add decompression and
again, it's transitions. So we're talking about school as transition and then
it's the human physical body that reacts to stimuli. So all of this affects the
kids and each teacher expects this calmness.
[00:37:38.03] But back to your original story of giving the students the
tools, I think it's vital for us as educators to keep thinking about what are
the tools that I need to contribute right now to the students in front of me
instead of expecting the school to do it, or the parents to do it, or the
whatever.
[00:38:02.63] I mean, we can go down that rabbit hole, which we're not going
to do on this podcast, but we want to pull out the wisdom that we all have that
we've been using successfully and do it just with the kids that are in front of
us because those are the two students in your stories that that was the
difference that was made.
[00:38:23.29] So thanks for sharing that because that's really helpful. Now,
Maria, you've written a lot of books, you have some bestsellers with Corwin.
You shared a little bit about how you got into the writing after D, AD, after
dissertation. But talk a little bit about your picture book ideas and your
favorite book that you've written. Just talk a little bit about your writing process.
[00:38:47.02] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I have to say my favorite book that I've
written is my Corwin book, Ramped-Up Read Aloud. And the reason that's my
favorite is because as my story showed, I've always had an unwavering belief in
the power of read aloud.
[00:39:02.32] I think that when you can select the right book a read aloud
experience can be a joyful learning event. Joyful being the key word there. So
in Ramped-Up Read Aloud, it really came from the fact that I read aloud and
kept a tally of someone had visited my classroom and said, you really should
write something about read aloud.
[00:39:24.77] So that's what I did and it ended up being a book that has 101
read aloud experiences. So I selected books based on my knowledge of books and
then I just helped teachers to see how you could ask those open-ended questions
that would provide opportunities for students to converse with each other and
at the same time meet those all important ELA standards.
[00:39:53.33] So then after that we layered on top of that or I wrote
shakeup shared reading so then after the read aloud experience teachers could
take that into the shared reading context and reread the book for different
reasons.
[00:40:08.03] So it's the most joyful writing ever. Probably the most
difficult part of it is picking the books which I'm in the process of right now
for volume 2 of Ramped-Up. And I mean, I literally have stacks and piles of
picture books in my house and trying to narrow them down to the ones that will
work best with kids.
[00:40:31.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love what you're talking about. So
you're bringing me right back to my fifth grade classroom. I loved to read
aloud. I don't know who, was it Lucy Calkins? I don't know who I was reading at
the time when we were taking courses that got me into it, but I can remember
and I read every day aloud, I taught fifth grade. And I had a director's chair
and I would sit in the front up so I could see all the kids.
[00:40:57.05] And I remember reading Dear Mr. Henshaw, I don't know if you
have read that because it's more middle grades. And I can remember starting-- I
was crying as I was reading the book. And the students' experience of the
teacher getting so drawn in, for me, made a difference in the way I taught
after that.
[00:41:25.17] I always did read aloud so what you're saying. And if the
listeners, the teachers that are listening if you don't do read aloud, you need
to do it because it shows the students who we are too by our selection of books
and what we choose to read aloud and then choosing the students.
[00:41:42.49] I know you had first graders, but my kids were older and they
could sit in the director's chair and read aloud if they chose to. So they could
have that experience because the voice is the music that you're using in your
transition. So you're bringing voice into that classroom. So bravo, I love that
story. Good luck.
[00:42:03.52] MARIA WALTHER: Very joyful writing.
[00:42:04.84] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and so I'm trying to think of
high school and middle school teachers because you're using the picture books.
I want to talk about that. So how do you how do you support other--
[00:42:16.04] MARIA WALTHER: Different books belong in every classroom.
[00:42:17.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, so this is graphic. Is this
graphic novels too? Does that fit or is that different? I don't know.
[00:42:23.96] MARIA WALTHER: A little different. I think just mostly picture
books. And recently I saw Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul talk and she said that picture
books are short stories that belong in every classroom. And that was an aha
moment for me, her wisdom, because that's really what they are, they're just a
short story. So I think you can use picture books across the grade.
[00:42:45.23] My daughter teaches seventh grade. She uses picture books all
the time because you can build background. If you're studying a topic, you
could build background with a picture book, you can create a text set of picture
books, there's so many things that you can do with picture books. So that's
part of our--
[00:43:01.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, I love that. So I can remember
having two students sit next to each other on the floor with a picture book and
just go back and forth making up a story. Is that something you did? They'd
say, oh, once upon a time, and they'd look at the picture and made it up. And
is that something that is done or did I just make that up?
[00:43:21.47] MARIA WALTHER: Well, I think that's a prereading, that's
students who are still, they're not able to read the words yet perhaps, they're
able to tell the story. And we know that reading is based on oral language. So
having them do that is a way to support them as readers and that's another
wonderful use of a picture book.
[00:43:42.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I remember doing that. And I had
a student in fifth grade and my school burned down one year and I taught in a
trailer for the following year, a whole other story. But I discovered a fifth
grader who couldn't read and it was through this picture book situation, and he
was reading with someone, and then we could tell that he didn't have the oral,
he didn't have the language. And he had gone to fifth grade without it.
[00:44:10.31] So I'm a big-- but the oral reading, and the read aloud, and
everything by the end of the year, he actually read his first book and it was
like, hey, I read my first book, he was so excited. So thank you for your
contribution around reading and oral language.
[00:44:25.46] And you're not just a first grade teacher, and I don't mean
just, because I think first grade and kindergarten are the most difficult
grades to teach, but thank you. Thank you for that contribution. Now, Sandy,
you are in a published book. How did that feel to be part of the weekly wisdom,
that your wisdom was chosen for the When I Started Teaching book, your first
publication?
[00:44:56.78] SANDRA BROWER: I am very proud to have been part of that. I
know I was reluctant to begin with, Carol, you had to beg me.
[00:45:05.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I did beg you because you had such a
good story.
[00:45:08.21] SANDRA BROWER: Yeah. No, but I'm very proud to have been a
part of that whole project, Carol, because to get that book and to start
reading some of the stories that the teacher tells and just to understand that
this is real life in the classroom, this is what's going on with our teachers
today and how much it showed.
[00:45:29.97] To me it shows how much those teachers care, and love their
job, and love their students. And to be able to take that then and share it
with other teachers is huge. I remember when I was working for the academy, we
had a day where the kids from-- we had 20 like 15, 20 different schools, this
is high school, we'd come for a day and learn about character ed, and
well-being, and so on, and so forth.
[00:45:59.68] But we had a time during the day when we just had the teachers
all together. And we had a principal who facilitated the conversation and we
had allotted only like a 40-minute time period for these teachers to get
together and talk about character ed, and what's going on in their schools, and
the challenges they have.
[00:46:19.19] It ended up being 80 minutes those teachers were talking and
it was a very lively and engaging conversation. And they were just learning
from each other and it was just wonderful to see that happen with the teachers.
So I think that needs to happen more often.
[00:46:34.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I believe I agree with you. But
your focus now really is direct service to students. So just tell me a little
bit about the organization that you're part of. And your writing is on the
website and that publication. So just tell us a little bit about how we
connected with Positive Education Consortium and why people need to know about
this, why do the teachers need to know about this?
[00:47:03.01] SANDRA BROWER: Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, I'm
part of it. It's a nonprofit group called the Positive Education Consortium.
And like I said, it's international. So we have members from the UK, from
Canada, all over. And our basic common interest is positive psychology, which
is the science of human flourishing and well-being. And underneath that
umbrella you'll find character ed, and SEL, and everything else.
[00:47:32.48] But we all met back in 2018 from a conference we'd gone to in
Dallas about accelerating positive education and we've been meeting ever since.
I'm actually the secretary of the group, so that's another place where my
writing comes in. I've done the pamphlets the brochures, the poster, and the
different things for that, but it's all about bringing well-being into our
schools.
[00:48:00.97] It's huge over in Australia. They have positive education
written into their governmental countries policies where every school needs to
have positive education pieces within it, but that's where I got sidetracked. I
started out with health education and I ended up going and getting my
certifications and applied positive psychology.
[00:48:26.68] And the goal of our group is to bring positive education into
the United States. And like I said, it's all about teaching kids and teachers
actually well-being practices. There's so many skills and practices that you
can learn. And part of it is like the science of gratitude. Believe it or not,
there's a science to gratitude and how that emotion helps to build your
well-being.
[00:48:55.27] And doing gratitude practices builds your well-being, it
shifts your negative or your difficult emotions to your positive emotions,
which then enhances your health, your whole health. There's a science to
kindness, which I actually just recently taught to seventh and eighth graders
and that was a lot of fun.
[00:49:16.94] But that's what our goal is to bring this into schools in the
United States because for me, as a health educator I think that has to be the
primary focus of all schools because if you don't have the health of the
student, you don't really have academics. And I've seen it so many times in
schools where these kids who are struggling, they don't care about their
academics, it doesn't matter to them.
[00:49:44.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: My commitment is to do that with
teachers because I think we both need to be learning the same skills and that's
why I wrote Teaching With Light during COVID with the stories and the emotional
situations that we all face, but we just need the tools like gave that tool to
the student at the beginning of our show to see the three positive things.
[00:50:12.42] We need to teach teachers to do that with our colleagues, with
the principal, with the superintendent let's see the three positive things
because we're human beings and that's what Teacher to Teacher wisdom is all
about. And the two of you just gave us such a fabulous conversation today and
lots to think about. So how do you stay positive? You each have a chance to
share an idea. What do you do for your well being. So that you can continue to
flourish, and write, and participate fully? What do you do, Maria?
[00:50:52.21] MARIA WALTHER: So I'm an avid swimmer. So there is nothing to
me more relaxing and healing than being in the water and swimming. And I have
the good fortune of swimming at a Park District, beautiful pool.
[00:51:04.25] And what I love about being there in particular is the
community of swimmers of all ages and abilities. And my favorite swimmer is a
woman, she's 84. And she comes into the locker room in the morning and I'm done
with my swim and she says congratulations to everyone who has finished their
swim already.
[00:51:24.27] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I love it.
[00:51:26.33] MARIA WALTHER: So when you talk about positivity like there's
so much positivity in the community, but then there is that heat part of being
in water.
[00:51:35.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and the thing is what we need to
emphasize is we need to find what it is we love to do to nourish ourselves. And
as teachers, and committee people, and writers, and all of this, it's a
daunting job and we could just get swallowed up, but to have that swim it must
reset you so then you can go back and pick them, choose the books that you're
doing for your second edition in a more graceful way. Does that happen to you
after--
[00:52:10.62] MARIA WALTHER: After my best writing days are always the days
that I get up and swim because sometimes it's not so easy to get up.
[00:52:16.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Sandy, what do you choose to
nourish your heart and soul?
[00:52:23.67] SANDRA BROWER: Well, for me, obviously positive psychology
comes top of mind. Our framework is you learn the skills, you live those
skills, you teach those skills, and then you embed those skills. And one of the
things that I find outside of learning and practicing those is nature.
[00:52:46.53] I love walks in the woods. I love time away from noise out in
the middle of nowhere. I love my garden. I have a vegetable garden and a flower
garden that I just love to get out there and weed because it's so relaxing.
[00:53:05.95] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, well thank you both for the
seriousness, but the lightness that came through in this conversation with two
teachers who never met before and that's what Teacher to Teacher is all about
finding the common wisdom, and the shared perspectives, and the differences. So
let's end our podcast with a prompt from Richard Elmore's book, I Used to Think
and Now I think. What has changed or shifted that has brought you to this next
level of learning for yourself, Maria? I Used to Think and Now I Think.
[00:53:45.07] MARIA WALTHER: I used to think because I was raised as a
teacher during the debate between phonics and whole language, that dates me. I
used to think that education, that our trends were like a pendulum because
that's what everyone said when I was a young teacher, it's pendulum. And the
pendulum is swinging back and forth. But I think that type of binary thinking
this or that is not really helpful for us, it's not healthy, and it's also not
helpful for our students.
[00:54:17.09] So now I think that we-- and what I've done over my career is
we weave together the best practices from every trend, and so the
evidence-based practices and we take them and we weave them together. So I
think that rather than education being a pendulum, I look at it as a quilt and
we weave all those pieces together in a different way every year because we
have a different class every year who has different needs every.
[00:54:47.74] If we're talking about teaching readers, there's no one right
way, every reader needs something different. So that's why I used to think it
was a pendulum and now I really believe that we have to view it like a quilt to
come to some consensus for kids.
[00:55:03.50] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And Sandy, what's your, I
Used to Think and Now I Think wisdom?
[00:55:10.31] SANDRA BROWER: I used to think that our educational system
provided everything that our children needed and obviously academics is very
important. They need to learn to read, and write, and do math, and so on, and
so forth.
[00:55:24.33] But after working in schools I see that we're missing the
whole well-being piece. To me, that's really important, I think that has to be
top priority. So I used to think that education provided everything that our
students and our kids need, but now I think that we're missing this one piece
that really needs to be a priority for our kids, they need us.
[00:55:52.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: They do. And I would add that for
teachers as well and that is my message and why I love working with you because
you put the students there and then I'll say and the teachers. So I used to
think that if you were prepared to be a teacher, and you knew your content, and
you had all of the teaching skills, and all of the wisdom from your mentors
that you would be successful in the classroom.
[00:56:19.94] And now I think, and know, and realize that the well being and
the part of being a teacher has to be nourished and the tools have to be given
whether it be the breathing tools, or the reading aloud, or whatever it is, the
teachers need that same knowledge that we give to our students as well and a
big cycle.
[00:56:44.36] So I thank you both from the bottom of my heart. This was a
wonderfully invigorating and fun conversation. I'm going to go get my playlist
to transition to my next work activity. So we'll see what I'm going to choose.
Thank you. And Tori, what are your final words for this podcast that we created
today?
[00:57:06.98] TORI BACHMAN: Thank you both. I actually really enjoyed. I
loved how your experiences and your approach to education meshed even though
you have very different backgrounds, you teach kids who are very different
ages. The ways that you talked about providing tools to students and the
conversation about teachers in inquiry and actually paying attention and asking
yourself, what does this child need? It's really powerful and you're doing that
work in different ways.
[00:57:46.43] Giving kids the tools to communicate with one another and
build relationships with their peers and with their teachers is really valuable
work and something that I do think is important at all ages.
[00:58:01.16] Sandy, like you said the student that you were working with
was older and maybe you had others around her had assumed that she knew how to
communicate with adults or could express her feelings and you had that aha in
realizing that she needed to just flip the script a little bit. And I think
that was a really powerful story.
[00:58:24.80] And just stepping back and letting the kids own those tools
and have that agency is really important too. I also just love the idea of the
music for transition times, but you both spoke about transition. Sandy bringing
up the breathing activity of it is for kids, that actually came up in my house
just last night. In fact, we had to have a moment of sitting and breathing, but
because summer is a whole other ball of wax.
[00:58:58.51] But yeah, giving kids that time to recognize that this is a
transition and I'm going to do something else now that's different than what I
was doing five minutes ago is really important. And again, another set of tools
that they can take with them when they start to recognize that they need that
moment to sit and breathe or they recognize that this song or this cue means
I'm doing something else now, those are really important things.
[00:59:24.74] So I appreciate so much of this conversation and the way that
you're both bringing your knowledge of well-being, and relationship building,
and supporting students as whole people is really, really encouraging, and
powerful, and I think gives us a lot of insight. So thank you.
[00:59:50.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. It's been such a privilege
and pleasure to host and have this conversation go out on the universe for
everyone to hear. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time on Teacher to
Teacher.
[01:00:06.88] ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to
Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you,
and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of
Corwin's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.
[01:00:23.23] Please leave a review, and share this podcast with your
colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a
place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with
experienced educators.
[01:00:34.30] [MUSIC PLAYING]
Maria Walther
Maria Walther is a seasoned educator, author, and literacy consultant with over three decades of experience teaching first grade. Her practical, yet engaging approach to classroom instruction has made her a trusted partner for educators seeking effective teaching strategies. With a doctoral degree from Northern Illinois University, Maria is an avid researcher who continues to further her knowledge of literacy instruction. Maria is a strong advocate for reading aloud and has been honored for her dedication to fostering a love of reading in children with the Illinois Reading Educator of the Year and the ICARE for Reading Award. One of Maria's most cherished awards is The Most Influential Educator, given to her by a former student turned colleague. This speaks to the lasting impact she has on those she teaches. As a prolific writer, Maria aims to provide busy teachers with practical resources. Her best-selling books, The Ramped-Up Read Aloud and Shake Up Shared Reading, offer actionable insights into creating engaging reading experiences for kids. Collaborating with Karen Biggs-Tucker, Maria co-authored The Literacy Workshop, which helps educators seamlessly integrate reading and writing instruction. In A Year for the Books, co-written with her daughter Katie, Maria shares routines and mindsets for building student-centered reading communities from kindergarten to eighth grade. Educators can learn more about Maria's consulting work and find helpful resources on her website, mariawalther.com, or connect with her on Instagram and Twitter as @mariapwalther and @ayear4thebooks.
Sandra Brower
Carol Pelletier Radford
Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.
You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.
Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford
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