Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders
[00:00:00.34] NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast
with host Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education
leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put
research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but
by design.
[00:00:19.53] TANYA GHANS: Hello, Peter.
[00:00:21.41] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya. How are you?
[00:00:22.67] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. How are you?
[00:00:24.08] PETER DEWITT: I am doing well, actually. Thank you for asking.
[00:00:27.10] TANYA GHANS: Have you been running recently? Why do I feel
like you've been running recently?
[00:00:30.72] PETER DEWITT: I have been running. I just did a half marathon.
And I'm a little bummed that you weren't at the starting line with me. But I
did a half marathon here in Albany, New York, where I live. So yeah.
[00:00:41.15] TANYA GHANS: Next time. Listeners, you can hold me to it.
[00:00:43.58] [LAUGHTER]
[00:00:45.56] All right. So as always, we have really fascinating guests who
are luminaries in the field. And today, these two guests definitely speak to
that. We have on Andrew or Andy Hargraves-- Hargreaves, excuse me-- and Dennis
Shirley. They've done so much that they probably don't need much of an
introduction. They have such a long history with an emphasis on educational
change and social justice.
[00:01:14.63] So I'm really thrilled that we have them on today to talk
about what is a really timely topic. And that is the topic of identity. I don't
know where you'd have to be living to not have-- to not be frankly bombarded
with a lot of talk and discourse around identity and feel how complex and
difficult this topic is.
[00:01:36.36] So their latest book is called The Age of Identity-- Who Do
Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? It's a book where they
meticulously explore the history of identity but also ask readers a lot of
probing questions and try to complicate this conversation, which I do-- I think
it needs complicating. I think they are really pushing to expand the idea of
inclusion, move away from all kinds of binaries. And I think this conversation,
you all are really-- listeners are going to really see how respectful they are
to such a nuanced and complicated topic.
[00:02:16.56] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I think that was beautiful, how you said
that. Because you're right, it was-- people will notice during the interview
that there are these-- there's a spectrum. And they complicate it. At the same
time, they clarify it. And people often-- one of the things I said at the end
is with identity, it's this monolith sometimes where you're kind of like,
you're this identity. And that's all. You have to check that box. And yet, what
we find through the conversation is that it is much more nuanced.
[00:02:53.30] And to me, one of the things that I thought was important
during the conversation that people will hear is this is not just about kids in
school, although that's for sure important for kids in school. But we also got
into the conversation of understanding our identity helps us as we age. And
people hear me talk about when you get to retirement.
[00:03:19.58] And maybe you were a teacher or a school principal or a
superintendent. And you identify so much with the position that when you
retire, you're a little bit lost because you're wondering, who am I now? And
we've even talked about that.
[00:03:31.93] So I feel like we've covered anywhere from birth and death and
everywhere in between. But what a really interesting conversation.
[00:03:42.71] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, we covered a lot in a short period of time.
But I think people are going to walk away feeling edified, curious. It really
speaks to just who they are as thinkers and as researchers, what you'll get
when you get the book and you read it. I think listeners, you're really in for
an important listen for people who are leaders who are on the front lines who
are forced to grapple with these issues, whether they want to or not.
[00:04:10.32] We know it's their meeting you at the front door a lot of
times and that just burying your head in the sand probably, it's not going to
really work like figuring out a different response. And I think this is an
episode that, again, like you said, be clarifying. This could help.
[00:04:29.23] PETER DEWITT: Well, I'm looking forward to-- or I hope people
are looking forward to hearing it. Because I mean, first and foremost, it's
Dennis Shirley and Andy Hargreaves. And this was truly international. I'm here
in upstate New York. And you're in the New York City area. And then we've got
Andy in Ottawa. And we've got Dennis hanging out in Italy. So--
[00:04:49.34] TANYA GHANS: Great.
[00:04:49.91] PETER DEWITT: --this was very much international. But it's
Dennis Shirley and Andy Hargreaves. And one of the things that I-- I mean, I've
known them for a long time now. And they're just deeply passionate about
things.
[00:05:03.49] I think one of the things-- and I didn't talk to them about
this. But I think one of the things people need to understand about researchers
like Andy and Dennis is that they're deeply passionate about learning. And you
may have said it on air. But they definitely said it off air, that they learned
a lot about themselves in this research. And that's just awesome to hear. So I
hope everybody enjoys the conversation because I certainly did. It was good for
my soul.
[00:05:30.90] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, yes, yes. All right, well, we will let them
do the rest of the talking. And I will see you on the other side.
[00:05:39.98] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:05:42.63] NARRATOR: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and
resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from
teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran
teacher, find ready to go teaching tools at corwin.com today.
[00:06:00.14] PETER DEWITT: Andy Hargreaves and Dennis Shirley, welcome to
the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast.
[00:06:05.65] ANDY HARGREAVES: Welcome. Glad to be here.
[00:06:07.81] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Thank you. Looking forward to the
conversation.
[00:06:11.06] PETER DEWITT: It's so good to have you on. And I just want to
jump into-- let's jump into the new book first. And then we can go wherever the
conversation takes me. But, Dennis , you and Andy wrote The Age of Identity--
Who Do Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? This is a really
important yet nuanced conversation. So I'm going to go to you first, Dennis.
Why did you decide that this was a book that the two of you wanted to write?
[00:06:41.04] DENNIS SHIRLEY: So we were doing research in Ontario. And the
government had four priorities for the educational system. This is pre-COVID.
And one of them had to do with promoting student well-being. And we found that
one of the ways that the 10 districts we were studying were trying to promote
student well-being was by promoting their identity. Because there have been a
number of identities that have been oppressed and marginalized.
[00:07:08.02] So often, we think of racial identities. In Canada, it might
be more indigenous identities. A number of districts were working on LGBTQ
issues. Also, thinking about the identities of students who have special needs,
who have learning disabilities. That's a particular kind of identity.
[00:07:28.28] So we didn't say we want to go out to schools to study
identities. We went out to schools to study how districts were implementing the
government agenda. And identity was everywhere. And we decided that we would
see what was happening. And that was really how the book began.
[00:07:48.92] PETER DEWITT: So, Andy, what did you find when you started
doing this work? Because I would venture to guess that we have many more
identities to talk about than maybe we recognized years ago. So how did this
stick out to you? How did the identity concept stick out to you when you were
trying to do this work? And what did you learn?
[00:08:15.75] ANDY HARGREAVES: Yeah, thanks, Peter. First of all, our great
privilege is we're professors. So we're paid to watch people, listen to people,
help them and support them where we can by feeding stuff back to them. And then
the greatest privilege of all is we're paid to read stuff. Like, we actually
get time to read stuff for which we get good money.
[00:08:42.04] And so we began by trying to understand and in some cases
showcase great things that districts were doing responding to the idea that
identity was a big part of inclusion. And that inclusion is a big part of
achievement. So it's hard to achieve unless you feel included. And it's hard to
feel included unless in some important ways the school understands and pays
attention to who you are and its curriculum and the way it works with you and
so on.
[00:09:14.33] So that is where we began. And as we started reading around to
think-- well, what can we learn about identity? What do we already know? What
do the psychologists have to say? What are the anthropologists have to say? Or
what do the cultural theorists have to say? What are people looking at now
around identity issues?
[00:09:37.13] So very contemporary concerns with things like
intersectionality. That's when we have multiple things that we're dealing with
as a human being, not just one. So we may be poor, but we're not only poor. We
may be Black. We may not just be Black, but we may be marginalized in other
ways. We may be female. So people don't come in ones and twos with their
identities. The identities come in whole bundles.
[00:10:09.14] And then in the press, frankly, on the media, on our social
media feeds, particularly within the last two years, two or three years, we've
seen a noticed that there are huge controversies around identity all across the
political spectrum. Songs are banned. Books are banned. And, again, not just
from one perspective, but from different perspectives.
[00:10:38.13] And so we started to think, what does our work have to
contribute to this debate? So it is not quite so adversarial and
confrontational putting a lot of leaders on the spot, actually, in terms of not
really knowing what to do.
[00:10:53.96] But how can this work we've done and the reading we've done
around it-- and to some extent also drawing on our own life experiences, how
can this help us open the debate so more people pay attention to oppression and
marginalization and exclusion as significant parts of what they have to deal
with and that also, when they do that, they try to approach it in a way that
doesn't begin with certainties and set opinions but that involves listening
more closely to each other, having more empathy for each other's point of view,
and trying actually as a professional community to be inclusive about the way
we deal with inclusion?
[00:11:45.43] PETER DEWITT: So one of the things that you-- you had a lot
there that you were saying. And I know over the past few years, there's been
this pushback against social emotional learning. There are people that are
going to be listening to this saying, Dennis and Andy, you don't get it.
[00:12:02.63] We get so much pushback. We have parents showing up to our
board meetings. And a lot of people are saying, schools are a place where you
just need to focus on academics. So why is this such an important conversation?
And given the importance, why is it so controversial? So, Dennis, I'll start
with you on that one. Why is this such an important conversation in general?
And then why is this so controversial?
[00:12:33.70] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Well, I think that the answer for why it's so
important, you can just look at some of the statistics for LGBTQ kids and
suicide attempts or kids of color not completing high school. You can look at
any number of numbers in which identity issues are implicated. So that's a kind
of a-- that's a kind of a very simple way to begin the conversation.
[00:12:59.35] But one of the things I'm really proud of with the book is the
idea that not just students who are from marginalized populations have
identities, stigmatized identities. But everybody has an identity. And so how
can we create conversations in which people can talk about their complex,
overlapping identities?
[00:13:22.09] And, Peter, I think that there's ways to do this that get
beyond the polarization really quickly and are kind of fun. So when you write a
book about identity, you start asking people, well, tell me about your
identity. And one person will say, my identity is my hair. Seriously, you know?
And then somebody else will say my identity is my clothes. And yes, of course,
people will say, race, gender orientation, and all of those things.
[00:13:52.83] But there's so much more that's going on with identities that
could be point of for inclusion. And we do have a crisis in many societies, the
US among them, with loneliness and epidemic of loneliness. And that's really
tragic that people feel that they are not seen, that they don't belong
anywhere. And I think that there's an opportunity there for us to think about
how can we bring people in, how can we welcome them. And this would go across
the spectrum.
[00:14:32.94] So one of the things-- I came across this some years ago. But
if people asked me for my politics, I'd say I belong to the party of education.
So how can we frame things in terms of education, promoting learning, human
development, flourishing, all of those things? And if we just try to do the
academic stuff, we're going to leave so many kids behind, so many kids out.
[00:15:03.32] So I think that that's the answer to your question for why
it's so important. And also, a bit what are the opportunities that we can have.
And I do understand. I sympathize with people who have been told, you can't do
anything about gender, can't use this book, can't teach that statue, all of
those things.
[00:15:26.57] I was fortunate. When I was in high school, I had teachers who
loved to expose us to many different points of view. And, boy, was that
exciting. And students really don't like it when we preach at them for many
perspective. That's self-determination theory.
[00:15:41.91] So I think there's an opportunity here. But I am mindful about
the minefield that's out there for many educators. And we have to acknowledge
that and work with that.
[00:15:54.71] PETER DEWITT: I enjoy, Dennis, the answer about the education
piece because I think you're absolutely right. And one of the pieces of
research that I've remembered from over a long time is Odutola's research in
1972 that talked about our students were alienated from our schools because
they don't have an emotional connection to their teacher school, or they don't
have a voice in their own learning.
[00:16:17.48] And that's part of what you're doing. But, Andy, I feel like--
and I've known you both for a while. I feel this book is also about humanizing
this. And that's what-- I mean, I was fortunate enough to read it before it was
published. And I feel like it was all about how can we humanize things.
[00:16:37.47] Because we've gotten so-- some of the rhetoric has just become
so evil. And I feel like the two of you were talking more about how can we
interact like humans and humanize this conversation around identity. Am I off
on that? Or am I correct, Andy?
[00:16:52.38] ANDY HARGREAVES: No, I think it is a very humanistic book. And
another part of my professional life, I bring together ministers from--
secretaries of education from seven systems, countries, and states provinces
who are committed to democracy inclusion, equity, human rights. So this is a
big part of who I am. I think it's a big part of who Dennis and I are.
[00:17:23.88] And a great starting principle for all learning is you begin
with where the learner is. So you begin with their prior knowledge and what
they know. And you begin quite explicitly in some countries' curricula with who
they are and what is their developing self, who they want to be, what they feel
part of.
[00:17:47.79] And a difficulty with the identity debate is there's loads of
people going around pointing fingers, telling people who they are, or telling
people which box they fall into. And, for instance-- I talk about them in the
book-- I've got five grandchildren. All of them are mixed race. The vast number
of mixed race people in America, there's no box for them to fall into. They
don't appear in curriculum materials. They're not part of the discussion. Are
they Black? Or are they white or are they one or the other? Where do they
belong?
[00:18:24.18] And there's a lot of people out there who want to put them
into one box or another to suit their own agendas in all kinds of ways. So take
my grandson as an example. And he's in the book. So there's no surprises. He's
10 years old. And somebody else wanted to say what is his identity. They might
say, well, he's a boy. He's mixed race. He's middle class.
[00:18:55.41] Well, the place to begin is by asking him. So Jackson said,
what book are you writing at the moment? I said, well, I'm writing a book about
identity. Well, that's really interesting. So I said, Jackson, what's your
identity? And when you ask people this question-- and we ask people in all
kinds of roles like taxi drivers, hairdressers, hotel receptionists of all
kinds of colors and backgrounds all over-- nobody regards it as an
uninteresting question. Nobody.
[00:19:25.62] And so Jackson's-- I said, like, give me three things about
your identity. And he said, well, I'm Canadian. Because national identity is
very important to a lot of people sometimes more than one national identity.
And then he said I'm a brother. And when I said that-- because he got two
sisters. When I fed that back to his mother, his mother cried. She thought it's
such a lovely thing to say that he sees himself as a brother to his sisters.
And then he said, and I'm a gamer.
[00:20:00.03] So whatever discussions you have about identity with Jackson
as a 10-year-old or any 10-year-old, begin, like everything, with people sense
of who they are and then help them figure out what they might become, how that
involves other people, and what you can belong to together. I mean, this is
like John Dewey 101, basically. But it's still alive and well and important in
the world we're in today.
[00:20:30.95] PETER DEWITT: Well, it reminds me-- because I taught first
grade for 7 out of 11 years. So we always started off with, who am I know, in
the first week of school. And when I'm hearing Andy talk, Dennis, it makes me
think about-- you see the deeper connection between if students are not only--
not only do they understand who they are, but the fact that they're allowed to
articulate it within the classroom and be able to talk about it.
[00:20:59.80] I would venture to guess-- and you're the researchers. I would
venture to guess that that would be a pretty strong case for developing student
voice and helping students actually academically. I would think that it has a
pretty powerful impact on students engaging academically as well.
[00:21:17.94] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah, I think that's great, Peter. And the
interesting thing is we often don't ask our students who they are. And then
another interesting part is we don't ask our colleagues. And we don't ask
ourselves who we are.
[00:21:31.92] So I think one of the most courageous things I ever saw in
some professional development that I was leading in Darwin, Australia, was a
principal who said-- and he was maybe 60, 65. He said, most of my life, I've
known who I was and what I stood for and advocate that. But right now, I'm not
so sure, which is he was negotiating one of Erik Erikson's stages.
[00:21:58.07] And, of course, that's interesting, isn't it? It's interesting
that we don't just acquire an identity-- or I hope that we don't-- that's just
frozen in time. But we go on growing and changing. And that can be really rich
for our conversations with our colleagues.
[00:22:16.14] And I think-- Peter, earlier, you were talking about
self-awareness of leaders. You're working on a book where that theme is very
prevalent. Well, I think it's something that we all could benefit from is some
introspection.
[00:22:32.58] I'll be very interested in the response to the book, because
this book actually has a lot of questions. It asks readers to reflect for
themselves on who their identity is right now and who they are becoming. And I
hope that people will read those sections and will get to know themselves
better and will become better leaders and better teachers.
[00:22:54.18] PETER DEWITT: Well, Dennis, I want to go with what you were
just saying too, because you're triggering another thought for me. When you're
talking about this topic of identity and you were just talking about principal
who's 60 or 65, made me think about, when I was a teacher, I identified as a
teacher. I identified as a school principal.
[00:23:15.96] And now, I'm trying to figure out what my identity is because
I don't like calling myself a consultant. So I'm like, I'm a leadership coach.
I'm an author. But also, Andy, you were talking earlier about the whole idea of
loneliness.
[00:23:29.37] And the thing that's interesting about identity with the way
you're pursuing it is that often, when people retire, they struggle because
they feel like they've lost their identity. Because we identify so many of us
so closely to our profession and what we do, especially if you're an education,
that when you retire, the identity piece becomes very important because how you
identify yourself has changed.
[00:23:58.38] And that actually poses problems for people. They go from
having the status to now they're a retired person, they don't always know how
to identify. And that can be actually very lonely for them as well. Did you
find that? Was that a part of it as well?
[00:24:15.22] ANDY HARGREAVES: Well, of course, you how can you write a book
about identity and not be in the book [INAUDIBLE] about you? So we do have
little scurrilous bits here and there about-- we whine a bit about being in
that group that the waitstaff always move to the back of the restaurant.
Because incoming younger customers don't want to see nearly dead people sitting
in the window and putting them off their food. We do talk about not wanting to
go into retirement communities full of only other retired people wearing
pastel-colored polyester pants, playing golf all day, and eating early bird
specials at the restaurant.
[00:25:01.57] So these are whimsical. But there's a serious question. And
both of us are retired now. And in particular, I thought about this a lot for
the few months before I decided to retire. I retired a bit early because we
moved back to Canada to be near our grandchildren. She's a very significant
part of my identity, actually, as a grandparent. And it turned out to be a
spectacularly good decision.
[00:25:35.86] And, of course, the first thing you'd think about is, can I
afford this? And then you go through that. But that is really a camouflage for
a deeper question. And the deeper question for us and for many people around us
is, who will I be? Because your line of work, when you meet people, what is one
of the first things you ask? What do you do? What do you do? And it's just--
and it's not in a lot of the identity literature.
[00:26:08.77] And so I began to talk including with Dennis. I said, look,
I'm going to retire. I'm going to go to the frozen North of Canada in Ottawa.
And I know lots of people in Canada. I know practically nobody in Ottawa. I
have no position there, nothing. What will I do if everything comes to a stop,
my whole professional life?
[00:26:37.81] I move North, away from all the people I've known at Boston
College. And everything stops-- the writing, the speeches, the applause, the
students, the admiration, the gratitude. What will I do if all that stops? And
then people, including Dennis, said, don't be stupid. You're famous. When you
got more free time, people will be falling over themselves. I said, no, I
really need to think about this question.
[00:27:07.11] I'm British. So I don't believe in Pollyanna theories of life,
where everything is going to work out fine. I'm more inclined to look at what's
the worst case scenario here, and can I deal with it? So the worst case
scenario was it will all stop. It will all come to an end. I'll be done at 68
years old. How would I feel about that?
[00:27:30.39] And it took me about six weeks. And I decided I feel just
fine. I'll feel just fine. I've had a good professional life. I think I've
helped improve some things, help kids, help schools, helps educators. And I'll
carry on writing. Nobody will read it, but I'll still carry on writing.
[00:27:54.86] PETER DEWITT: Wow, you are brutally honest and wrong about
yourself, by the way.
[00:27:59.69] ANDY HARGREAVES: And--
[00:28:00.14] PETER DEWITT: At least one of us-- I would read it.
[00:28:02.42] ANDY HARGREAVES: Yeah, OK. So that's three of us, then. I have
my grandchildren. I love my grandchildren. And COVID actually brought us so
close together. And that is a monumentally important part of who I am. I have
other interests, particularly hiking. So I walk more.
[00:28:30.41] And so I decided I'd be absolutely fine. But that's a-- we
have colleagues for whom this question is a very difficult question.
[00:28:44.51] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I mean, I could see why that is. When I'm
running a workshop, I will use a protocol where I'll ask three questions. And
they're in groups of three. It's called microlab. And one of the questions that
I've started asking is, what do you want-- what do you want your leadership
legacy to be?
[00:29:03.50] And you don't think of it when you're in it. You've got the
day-to-day and all that stuff. So when you're having a very difficult
conversation, you're not thinking to yourself, oh, I wonder what my legacy is
going to be when I'm 20 years down the road. But it's a very interesting
question to be able to ask. And it does tie into the identity piece.
[00:29:21.43] One of the things I want to get back to is more of, I guess, a
little bit of the controversial side of it because the book spans a lot. And
there are things in there, there are topics in there that I think people can
digest and others that we know are really controversial. The two of you have
been huge advocates for the LGBTQ community over the years.
[00:29:42.56] And I remember, Andy, I was with you in London. And you got up
on stage for a keynote and started talking about safeguarding LGBTQ students.
And what's interesting for me is that as a gay man, if I get up on stage and do
that, people are thinking, I'm pushing an agenda. But I've always talked to you
about the fact that you were able to do that. And people would definitely
listen because they didn't see you as pushing an agenda.
[00:30:07.75] When the two of you were writing this book, is there a-- the
reason you went into it as learners and then you started to see this topic come
out, does that give you the ability to talk about a lot of controversial issues
in a way that you'll get a pass and other people won't? And I don't know if
that's a fair question.
[00:30:31.59] It reminds me of-- because I have. I've had people say, well,
I know that you've done some work on LGBTQ students. And that was my doctoral
dissertation. They know I'm gay. And they're like, but you can't talk about
that here. So I've actually been banned from talking about those kind of
conversations. Do you both get a pass where some of those things are concerned
because you're going in as researchers and learners? Does that question make
sense?
[00:30:57.12] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. And
so we're very privileged in this regard. We can do the advocacy without people
saying, oh, this is self-interest, although they don't always know. My daughter
is bisexual. And she's had to put up with some harassment, very painful, and
that I wouldn't have known about if she wasn't my daughter.
[00:31:24.64] And so I'm actually-- when I do advocacy for LGBTQ students,
it is self-interested, because I want her to flourish. And you could go
through-- we write about mixed heritage children and identities. We write about
identities that-- we're a little bit worried that some of our-- we'll lose some
of our US readers.
[00:31:50.44] So the population in Ontario that speaks French and that goes
to French language school and that we come across these great quotes where
identity is more important than achievement. That's a really interesting
statement. And the fact that it's coming from French Canadians in Ontario might
make it easier for people who push back against identity issues to listen to
it.
[00:32:17.71] So that's not so fair. But we're trying to open up some things
there that-- Old Order Mennonite communities-- so we studied one school
district that had 7% of the kids were Old Order Mennonites. They spoke German
at home. They have very different orientation towards mainstream society.
[00:32:38.60] So I think that we're trying to pull in a lot of different
identities. And at the same time, Andy and I are two old, white, straight,
cisgendered men get all that out there. And that gives us, I think, a
responsibility, a real responsibility to speak out and to take advantage of
that privilege. I hope that our readers will feel that we've met that
responsibility.
[00:33:10.29] ANDY HARGREAVES: If I can-- before you come back in with us,
Peter, if-- it's such an important point that you raised. And I think there's
four things come out of it if, I could get these through fairly crisply. But
first is, as you know, the reason I started talking about LGBTQ issues in my
presentations is not just that they're aligned with what I've stood for all my
life, which is social justice and equity. But because actually somebody on our
team as a graduate student came up to me and said, he wanted to work with me.
[00:33:49.59] And I said, why? And he said, well, you're famous in the field
of educational change, and you've done fantastic work, and I think I've got so
much I can learn from you. But in this thing that looks like a field, there is
absolutely nothing about LGBTQ issues. And if I work with you, you can learn
from me. And you'll become an advocate for that possibly within this field. And
it turned out to be completely right.
[00:34:17.79] So the first thing is there are some people in identity
politics who say, you can never fully understand what it is to be a gay man
unless you're a gay man, for example. And there is a truth in that. Nobody can
fully understand what it is like to be anybody else. But that doesn't mean we
should give up or we should not bother or we should have no voice or no
contribution. And if we believe in learning, we have to believe in the power of
learning a lot, not everything, but a lot of what it is like to be somebody
else and to include that in our social justice agenda.
[00:34:54.15] I think second is that helps us both understand that although
identity is important to be celebrated, there are people with many identities.
And the systems we've been in [INAUDIBLE] they can't show who they are. They
have to hide who they are. Nobody can hide who they are.
[00:35:18.64] You're a gay man. You'll know what that felt like, perhaps not
so much now. But 10, 20, 30 years ago, you'll know what that was like. I was
diagnosed ADHD in my 50s. I'd hidden all the things that go with that for
decades beforehand.
[00:35:38.90] George Michael, a gay man, and Ivor Novello, award-winning
songwriter wrote a song before he came out with the line, guilty feet have got
no rhythm. Now, think about that-- guilty feet have got no rhythm. And if you
have to hide who you are, it not only damages who you are. It damages other
people that you have relationships with.
[00:36:13.65] Thirdly, there's more to all of us than meets the eye to all
of us. You're not just a gay man. You are a gay man. Perhaps you're especially
a gay man. But you've already talked about other-- like, your professional
identity, other parts. And what you see isn't always what you get. And there's
more to all of us.
[00:36:34.68] So nobody would know looking at Dennis that he has a bisexual
daughter, for example. And that's a very important part of who he is and what
he stands for. Nobody would know looking at me that I grew up with several
years from my mother on welfare and I was basically in charge of the family
rather than the family being in charge of me. But you can't see that in me.
[00:36:58.44] So we need to try to get to grips with not just what's most
visible but with the fullness and the complexity of who we all are, including
the oppressed parts. But then, for many of us, you can't just divide us into
two groups-- oppressor and oppressed. Many of us have got what we call
conflicting parts of intersectionality.
[00:37:26.41] So you may be a persecuted faith group, for example,
immigrated to America. But you're also homophobic. And perhaps the men are
patriarchal. You may be Black or Hispanic and deeply marginalized because of
that but also quite middle class and wealthy because the Black middle class has
grown a lot.
[00:37:58.20] So who is more marginalized? A middle class Black individual
or a poor, white working class Appalachian family addicted to fentanyl, for
example? And that's an impossible question to answer because the many parts of
the white working class are also xenophobic and racist.
[00:38:20.78] So we have these conflicting parts of our complex identities.
And we argue towards the latter parts of the book not to sweep those under the
table. But principles to be courageous, to be like the buffalo and face the
storm, not run away from the storm, and find ways to navigate their community
through these very important and difficult issues.
[00:38:50.07] PETER DEWITT: And I know we have to wrap it up. It's just such
an interesting conversation. Because in some cases, identity is very nuanced,
which we've talked about. And in other cases, it becomes this monolith where
you're stuck with-- people stick you with one identity when there's so much
more to it. And I just want to thank you both, not just for being on show, but
I've been a huge fan of the two of you for a very long time.
[00:39:18.64] And this book was just-- when you first sent it to me-- Andy
Hargreaves does not take no for an answer. But we all know that already. But
when you sent the manuscript-- and you're like, The Age of Identity-- who Do
Our Kids Think They Are and How Do We Help Them Belong? And I'm thinking, oh,
what am I about to read?
[00:39:37.62] But I think you both have articulated this so well throughout
the podcast because it's a deeply interesting book that I think we all can
learn from regardless of what your background is. Because it's really about
understanding who we are too as we're reading it. And so I just want to thank
you both for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast and good luck with
the book, because it's amazing.
[00:40:03.16] DENNIS SHIRLEY: Thank you so much, Peter. Really enjoyed the
conversation.
[00:40:08.01] NARRATOR:
[00:40:10.47] TANYA GHANS: So, Peter, what did you think?
[00:40:13.55] PETER DEWITT: I felt like I was laying down on my therapist's
couch. And I started just having this open conversation. Because I'm talking to
Andy and Dennis. And you forget that you're being recorded and everything else.
But it was just-- man, talking to the two of them is always a fantastic
opportunity.
[00:40:35.21] I mean, I'm still like-- I'm still that guy that was doing my
leadership degree. And I was reading Andy Hargreaves and Dennis Shirley. You
know what I mean? So when I'm talking to them about this, I still have a little
bit of that going on. But they have a way of clarifying a nuanced conversation
in such a great way that I was just enamored the whole entire time.
[00:41:01.78] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, I mean, what's so interesting about this
clarity piece is that I also walked away with sometimes part of the clarity is
that it's unclear. And you have to be able to-- you have to be able to be OK
with that. And if there's any-- if there's ever a topic where you have to get
comfortable with not knowing or not walking in knowing or not making
assumptions, it's this.
[00:41:22.78] So many things. Their idea about identity-- and I think people
know this, but I think when you're just moving through life and you're busy
working, you can forget that so much of identity is not visible. And there's
just a fullness to it that the only way to really get at this is to really get
to know people.
[00:41:42.81] I thought the quote where I think it resonated with you and it
resonated with me as well where he says, I belong to the party of education.
And then I think it was-- I can't remember if Dennis or Andy. But it was like--
[00:41:52.86] PETER DEWITT: It's Dennis, yes.
[00:41:53.58] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, and then when I was like-- the party of
human development or flourishing. And it's like, you know that's true for all
of us. It's like, there are these goals that I think so many of us share. And
if we can center those sometimes too as our North Star, what could that open up
in terms of possibilities?
[00:42:17.12] PETER DEWITT: Dennis, to me, is a Renaissance man. I remember
[INAUDIBLE].
[00:42:22.27] TANYA GHANS: That's it.
[00:42:23.13] PETER DEWITT: I remember we were all at the [? EXE ?]
conference in Norway. And I was having dinner with Russ Quaglia, Andy
Hargreaves, Dennis Shirley, and a few other people. And just hearing Dennis
speak, I thought, I want to be Dennis Shirley. He's this Renaissance man,
speaks different languages, knows a ton about art and music. And I'm just
sitting there going, oh, I feel so inept sitting across from Dennis Shirley.
And I'm lucky I'm picking up the right fork.
[00:42:54.61] But yeah, they just-- that's the thing too is that they're
both very intelligent guys. But they also talk about that we make assumptions
about people based on what we see. And we need to not do that. And I just think
going back to the-- yeah, his answer about education was really interesting to
me. That self-awareness piece is [INAUDIBLE].
[00:43:22.52] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.
[00:43:23.54] PETER DEWITT: That's something that I'm pursuing now with Mike
Nelson. But it's just really interesting to think about who are we and whole
idea of our legacy, what do we-- what are we leaving behind. So very--
[00:43:37.04] [INTERPOSING VOICES]
[00:43:38.63] PETER DEWITT: --pull me out. Pull me out. It feels like I'm--
[00:43:41.74] TANYA GHANS: You and I are both sucked in. So, OK, a little
cold water. Pinch myself around a bit. Listeners, I hope that you got as much
out of this as Peter and I did. There's just so much to continue chewing on
after this kind of conversation. And so I look forward to seeing and learning
with you next time. This is fantastic. I don't know what we'll follow up with
it. But I know it'll be something great. Well, I of do because I am behind the
scenes. But this was a great one.
[00:44:14.72] PETER DEWITT: It was. And we're always looking for feedback.
But this is definitely a pod-- this is definitely an interview that you want to
go back and listen to again. And you've got to go into it with an open mind in
the first place, so.
[00:44:25.50] TANYA GHANS: Open minds, yes. Yes, open minds.
[00:44:27.94] PETER DEWITT: And you're always awesome to spend time.
[00:44:31.27] TANYA GHANS: Until next time.
[00:44:32.93] [MUSIC PLAYING]